to be fed up of people using Aspergers as an excuse

[SomeGuy]

Just reading DM (yes, IABU, I know), story about some bloke who got into a facebook tiff and sued for libel:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298010/Facebook-libel-Law-student-dubbed-paedophile-wins-10-000-li bel-damages.html

'Jeremiah Barber posted an indecent image of children on Raymond Bryce's page on the social networking website along with the comment: 'Ray, you like kids and you are gay so I bet you love this picture, Ha ha'.

The image, which hundreds of users could see, showed Mr Bryce superimposed on to a collage of pornographic pictures.

It was 'tagged' with Mr Bryce's name, allowing his 800 friends on the site to see it.

His victim, who is now a law student, pursued the civil claim against his former school friend and was awarded £10,000 at the High Court yesterday for the stress and anxiety the incident caused him.'

'Mr Bryce, 24, who lives with his parents in Stone, Staffordshire, suffers from high functioning Asperger's Syndrome, but has secured a place on a full time degree course studying law at Stafford University.'

So in other words he's intelligent and successful and has lots of friends. So why should we care that he 'suffers' from Aspergers? It doesn't make the libel any worse, or make him more of a victim.

Here's another story, from Friday:

www.thisiskent.co.uk/tunbridgewells/Asperger-sufferer-admits-cash-card-theft-friend/article-2442184- detail/article.html

'Sevenoaks Magistrates' Court heard on Friday how 22-year-old Michael Funnell, of Addison Road, invited a group of friends around to his house for a party on March 6.

He took their coats to hang them up and when Steve Goodwin's back was turned, took his bank card, before withdrawing £120 from a cash point.

He had memorised his friend's PIN when with him a couple of days before.

Brian Ferris, defending, said: "I am told my client has Asperger's syndrome. He can offer no explanation as to why he steals in this way."'

You wouldn't get them saying 'I am told thay my client doesn't have a very good job, because he is not very bright.'

Another story from today:

www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/Spared-prison-camera-showers/article-2442265-detail/article.html

' A MINISTRY of Defence manager who set up covert cameras to watch naked men in the showers has been spared jail.

Hensman, who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, was working as network manager in communications and systems at the MoD police HQ in Wethersfield when he was accused of voyeurism.

Judge Anthony Goldstaub QC told him: "You were originally prosecuted for sexual offences [voyeurism] but because of your psychiatric makeup these charges were dropped.

"In February 2006 you set up some sort of video recording equipment which recorded movements of people coming in and out of the showers, involving some images of naked males' private parts.

"You were doing it because of your psychiatric condition."

Asperger's is an autism disorder characterised by social interaction problems.

Judge Goldstaub said that people have to "accommodate" others with psychiatric disorders and be "tolerant", adding "it's not their fault".'

It seems to be a popular plea for people accused of child pornography offences:

www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/2031606.indecent_images_man_avoids_jail/

'A BARMAN who was caught with more than 900 indecent images of children has been spared jail.

Southwark Crown Court heard because Jonathan Bristow had Asperger's syndrome he could act on impulse and become obsessive about collecting things.'

Further to my last post, and in reference to people "self diagnosing for fun" etc...

Ds's school suggested he may have HFASD or AS, he is nearly 4. We have done some research and can definitely see traits in him BUT, we are NOT rushing off to have him DXed. Because, right now, he doesn't need the lable, right now he won't get better education etc. AND, he's very young, for HFASD or AS to be VERY observable anyway? he COULD still develope out of those behaviours.

Of course, this could just be me not wanting my son to have a problem, adn I would not hesitate to take him to whatever health care professionals he needs in the future if it proves that the things they have noticed are long term, and that he DOES need extra help and understanding etc, but I can't imagine people making up Dx of any ASD because it's the latest trend etc. it seems like a LOT for a small person AND their family to cope with.

Also, I am Bipolar, and I have heard a lot about people self diagnosing this. London GPS report a huge rise in people presenting with what the patients determine at Bipolar disorder. From my own experience, this is NOT a trendy dx, it is not cool to fight the system and the world to be able to do what other people take for granted it is not cool to be in hospital, and having to learn how to manage your own self becasue you have this illness, it's HORRIBLE and it STEALS things from you. People on the outside can't imagine what a nightmare it is to live with something like that. I imagine that while the issues are different, it is also true that NO parent of an ASD child would wish it on their child, or push for a dx when one is not needed.

I could imagine people 'seeing' ADD or some such in the way that people will worry abouttheir child being 'hyper'. I have never personally experineced it but I can imagine that a parent who is pulling their hair out at a childs challenging behaviour may seek a reason/explaination that makes sense.

But I cannot think of an occasion where a parent, who has no prior knowledge or experience, has reacted to the idea of autism without fear, grief or distress .
I regularly get upset at how people try to find any reason but autism so I don't see anyone looking for it or inventing it. The everyday view of autism is of a disconnected person who is lost. I don't think people create that for convenience.

I think it's a middle class thing to want an austic spectrum diagnosis; certainly at my son's school they seemed very pleased to have an explanation for aspects of his behaviour, and the SENCO seems to be enjoying having something different to work on. But this is a private prep school with 16 in a class, his state primary school previously didn't give a shit and said he was perfectly normal even though he clearly wasn't.

If your child does exhibit behaviour that can be ascribed to ASD it seems bizarre to think that people would want to say 'oh no he doesn't have autism, he's just rude and ill-mannered'.

Again this may depend on your social background - educated middle-class people are far more likely to have an understanding of what is meant by the term, Aspergers in particular being non-threatening, especially when used to describe a child who might otherwise be perceived as antisocial. There are also vast numbers of people who spend the majority of their lives on the internet who have self-diagnosed as having Aspergers - very fashionable in the geek community.

The concept that autism = 'rude and ill mannered' is interesting. It's like defining wheelchair users as rude and ill mannered because they won't stand up when we enter a room, or the Deaf community as rude and ill mannered because they aren't listening to us. I'm not keen on the use of language.

I was told that my son had no manners because he was intimidated by someone he doesn't know insisting he said goodbye to her. He just blanked her and turned his back.

DS is autistic but he is also only just three. I was quite cross.

ds1 was has been described at rude a few times for not responding. He can't talk.

I think I must be the scariest woman in the world. Nobody ever told me I was fat when I was pregnant, or patted my bumps. Nobody has ever told me my child is rude, even when he won't talk to them, and so on! I am sure people think he is rude, but I'm thrilled to say they wouldn't dare say it. He is terribly handsome though, which I'm sure helps!

I've had 'he's so handsome such a shame' quite a lot.

Sooooo ... per SomeGuy, if a person has an Asperger's diagnosis, nobody must consider whether or not their traits are relevant to a certain set of circumstances.

And per Heracles, nobody (specifically not a parent) must even consider whether a person might fit the Asperger's profile in the first place. (How does Heracles think those 'justified' diagnoses come about? - who it is who has the first worried thought? Just asking.)

Thank goodness they are in such a minority (on this thread - they might sadly be less of a minority in real life).

Where is Heracles? I'm sure I know him :drums fingers:

Yes bink you are right about the delay. I was practically accused of msbp by an nhs professional pre - dx. Then I was accused if being in denial immediately post dx. Make your mind up pros. Ffs. Incompetence abounds. No wonder patents get vociferous

Of cpurse its not an excuse

'Asperger's is an autism disorder characterised by social interaction problems' thats not true though
Aspergers means you meet teh criteria of the triad of Impairments; social interaction is one, language and communication and behaviopur also

Sometimes its a reason though: DS1 is aggressive. This is because of his AS. He has no empathy and extremely delayed social understanding which means he has no grasp of motive: if someone accidentally knocks him he thinks it is a geneuine attack and responds acordingly even after years of working on it. He nevber gets away with it but nothing works (I am doing an MA in ASD: I know the score pretty well!). he ahs what I woudl term as Sever ASpergers; tehre's a comcept that AS means mild Autism. That's false- it's milder than low functioning autism but can parallel with HFA easily. The diagnostic criteria are different for autism and AS.

And of course AS links in with a great many otehr conditions such as tourettes and psychiatric conditions that can themselves have negative societal problems. DS1 has eating disorders as a side effect for example, a side effect that can be life threatening.

As for the choice bit- hmm. Compulsions are compulsory. When ds1 hides his food his mind blanks and he doesn't ptocess other options, just the need to dispose of food. Likewise when he used to steal (still does but not anything like as often). It's not a choice, he can't control it. And even if he could he'd have a compeltely skewed fram of references to make that within owing to his AS.

Someguy do you think AS just emans antisocial?

DS1 gets high rate care as he needs 24/7 superrvision; he has a statement and 1-1 at school.

he's not anti social, he's disabled!

He also has a more severely autistic brother who will never achieve independence and needs quite specilaist teaching but I know which one is harder to parent.

And I know a fair few people on the AS borderline too who could be eprceived as rude si tou didnt know (heck i almost amrried one) but that's ignorance talking. ExP didn't not atlk for days becuase he was rude but becuase he had no grasp of the value of using language socially or the need to contribute to social relationships.

And I know I am going on but

you don't just get a dx if you ask for it!

As adults you may well never even have a chance- plenty of PCTs don't employ anyone to dx ASDs in adults fulls top

Where we are they only assess if the eprson is presenting with significant issues as a result of the potential DX: inability to maintain employyment, OCD, depressions, serial relationship fai;ure anre the most common.

For children the dx process is arduous. It took ds3 years to get a dx (autism), and ds1 about 18 months of reports from every professional going, and the tendency all the way through was to look for other explanations for his issues. We don't have the NICE dx guidelines yet but best practice at teh vcery elast involves assessment by a Paed or diagnosing psychiatrist, speech therapist, OT, medic and psychologist if at all possible. Not all diagnosed kids do get that but a great many do. Assessment also uses proper standardised, researched tests and not random labelling of people who are 'just a bit odd'.

Heracles why wpould I be irriated by someones worries about tehir childs health? Seriously? Just becuase I know mine have issues does not eman that I trivialise other peoples concerns.

WRT to self diagnosis I would stand up and say I cold self dx myself, of course that's not ahrd if you see my genetics and if you knew me but self dx isn;t worth a dime, and I don't see the point of adult dx for me because I am pretty much adapted (OK would be too broad a term; a friend would be nice, or disposing of a few phobias and obsessions).

I don't stand up and say it in RL though except to DH who is verya ware as if I did it would only be an excuse and I don't make excuses for myself.

However, wrt to the OP- someone usnG AS as a get out clause for paedophillia would be missing the key aspect of being locked up for the dsafety of otehrs. I do see a crrucial difference between someone with full processing comitting the act and someone without but teh end result has to be the same. likewise I would possibly even expect ds1 to spend time in jail as a rsult of his aggression: if he injures people he has to be stopped but I would also hope people show some empathy for his DX, and that they see it as the result of a disorder rather than someone in full control choosing to live such a life.

Starlight how'd ya guess LOL (was away camping)

In the landmark case where a judge accepted Asperger's as a mitigating circumstance against a charge of owning pornographic images of children (not an excuse), the guilty party had thousands of the pictures stored on his computer. (Sorry, no link as my virus scanner's making an issue of new tabs.)

The point was that no-one could possibly use THAT many images in a lifetime; Asperger's commonly gives rise to hoarding behaviours; he wasn't selling them; the man's bewilderment at his arrest had been obvious throughout the investigation, though he wasn't educationally subnormal. He did have an Asperger's dx and was basically collecting the pictures as other people collect china. Porn-related offences crop up fairly regularly with Aspie men, unfortunately, and I think the judge made a wise decision in that case. I can't remember the details, but he was facing a life sentence; I think he got a couple of years instead (and lost his computer, of course.)

Bloody antivirus! Never mind, I'm sure others can fill in if needed.

how could you not use thousands of images in a lifetime? That's obvious nonsense.

Many people have tens of thousands of pieces of music, and a piece of music takes several minutes to listen to. You're not going to spend several minutes looking at the same photograph. If I put my family photos on slideshow it goes through them in about three seconds each, so a thousand photos would take less than an hour to look at.

You could technically look at them yes.

I suspect use is different here but frankly I am not going there.

People with AS often (not always, OCD is common too wrt to cleanliness) hoard. They get a taste for something and it becomes a driving part of their persona. If you have ever watched someone with an ASD and their obsession you will know that it's more than choice, and the obsession part of ASD is the same whether AS, HFA or LFA

Criteria for dx:

AS- triad of impairments (may include language abnormalities but not developmental delay); sensory issues common

HFA- average (60 or 80 points common) plus triad and speech delay at 3 (possibly resolved by time of presentation)sensory issues common

LFA- clinically low IQ with triad and speech delay at 3 sensory issues common

You will see from that then that within the triad criteria (which can be as devastating as someone who never leaves home without screaming through sensory issues or who never enagges with anyone) someone with AS can be very badly affected indeed so obviously it's a factor worth consdiering in a trial.

AS has been hugely harmed by this 'mild autism' idea: it can be very mild but it can also present as severe and life damaging in itself and as such it's a very poor way to understand it

And I still think the notion that people are pleased in a 'gosh isn't thins just so trendy' way about getting an ASD diagnosis.

In fact I think that it is one ofthe most stupid things I have tread on MN and to be honest that is quite a feat. Actually just on this thread that is quite a feat.

Agree Pag

Realising my boys ahd an ASD was the most intenmse physical pain I have ever experienced; it was useful to have a reason and the understanding that goes with it, but no. I'd far rather have a non trendy bad aprenting dx thanks. I could change that.

and you are?

I am going to stop looking at this thread. It annoys me so much that people who claim to know about ASD can spout such shite, that my spelling is even worse than usual....

well, several of you have spouted some very much non-shite, if people don't learn after THAT there is no hope for them!!

PMSL Pag

I am but a fairy drifitng in and out of MN threads in my intangible existence

OK maybe not then. sadly.