to think that people that have been in the UK for a while DONT need translaters?

[porcamiseria]

I am NOT referring to people that have recently moved here, or have come as aylum seekers.

I also reserve similar vitriol when I see programmes about people who haved moved to Spain and it all goes tits up with their house, and they are there SPEAKING ENGLISH, gah

However yesterday I saw a woman in the maternity waiting room, and she arrived and got immediately greeted by her translater, which obviously the NHS are providing

She had a toddler with her, and I overheard the translater say this was her second birth at the hospital in question

so why the fuck has she not learnt English since then? she was nicely dressed etc, so in no way was she destitute

I told DP and he told me to "stop being so English" but I think that people whoever they are should learn the bloody language if they want to make a life and family here

anyway I am going to get flamed now....

YANBU at all this is something that pisses me off.

I have a friend who is living and working in Germany and he learnt German before he went there (ok just some basics) but he has been learning the whole time he is there despite a lot of English being spoken.

Can you imagine other places paying out endless money for translators just because people are too lazy to learn the language of the country they choose to go live/work in.

I think we should have a test before letting people come here, No English No entry

I learned German as an adult. I turned up in Germany as an au-pair at 18, and I honestly only knew how to say hello, good bye, please and thank you. A year later I was pretty fluent, I was even thinking in German. But even if I'd lived there a few years, I'm not sure if I could confidently cope with a maternity apt if there were complications with the pregnancy. I would want to be 100% sure I understood everything, and would want someone with me who could could make sure I understood everything, and the HCP understood me.

I have absolutely no sympathy for Brits who arrogantly stuff up abroad though with their luxury villas falling over crumbling cliffs etc because the couldn't read the small print, though.

Agree with LynetteScavo, I speak 4 languages (apart from English) to varying degrees, and my most fluent is German, having done a German degree and lived and owned property in (German-speaking) Austria. I have been through buying property and meeting solicitors overseas, and have paid for a translator for some of these appointments, as it's important that I don't miss nuance and gain a very slightly different meaning from something.

A medical appointment is a similar siutation where it's specialist language and really important to understand information and instructions and be able to fully communicate back to the healthcare professionals. Learning a language to a level where you are comfortable with EVERY situation that might arise, even over a period of 3 years or so, if you don't have an aptitude for languages or access to educational resources and a supportive learning community, is actually very hard.

I work in patient education and health literacy, and the amount of native English speakers who only understand half of what a doctor tells them is astounding. Add in the complication of a language that you might be only partially familiar with and misunderstandings abound.

D

YABVU

Whilst I hate working with a translator doing it without (and there are occasionally emergency situations where it is ncessary) is even worse.

Scary for the patient and scary for the staff in case we've missed something important.

"Medical" language is hard to understand if you are a non- native speaker. I have a large number of bilingual colleagues (mostly British Asians, but I can think of a few who speak other languages too). They can mostly operate on a social level in the language of their parents (hope this isn't too controversial) but really struggle to do anything medical like consent a patient for an operation.

Mmm. I wouldn't like to try discussing the distinctions between "uterine scar rupture" and "uterine scar dehiscence" in a language that wasn't my first language.

I think the point here is not only "needing a translator" or not. Is more about people migrating and living here for years without speaking the language. And more to the point: who is paying the bill? (probably not the patient lady in question...)

The rest of europe doesnt have a free at point of service for all Health Service like we do....that is why we are different.

milmae
As for "who is paying the bill" um, hows about she might work? pay national insurance and taxes? as well as her husband?! We know nothing about her situation yet seem so keen to asume the worst! On the subject then of people not contributing to the health service are you saying those on benefits should be made to pay the bill too!? I mean if they dont pay into the pot but just use it, maybe they fall foul of your theory too! the beauty of the NHS is that it is FREE at point of service!

The attitudes on here really astonish me sometimes. You know you can go private if you'd rather be spared the realities of life!

Coral... I didn't imply those on benefits should be made to pay the bill(well if they live on benefit, how could they?). What I meant is: those on benefit, specially, should speak the language fluently and adapt to the culture (probably this is beyond the point and will open a new can of worms...)

I really dont care if people have different cultures, ways of dress, religion. I like it, makes life more interesting. I am sure most of us do!

I just think that people should speak English, the UK is very generous with the public services, more so than many of our EU peers. What we should insist for in return is that people speak the language

I amk proud of the NHS, but think translaters should be exception, not the rule. people are lazy about it cos they know they get it on a plate

I haven't read the whole of the thread yet, but I speak as the child of naturalised immigrants:

Learn the language!

When my parents came to the UK my mum got a job with her schoolgirl English, but my dad went to classes to learn English from scratch.

I get very cross when Brits laugh at my mum's written English. They may get the word-order right, but half of them can neither spell any better than she does, nor speak as clearly and intelligently as she does. In fact both my parents speak with an accent but beautifully and fluently in a language they learned as adults, while trying to integrate in a new country and culture, while working, while raising a family, and, at first, while in penny-pinching poverty.

No excuse!

prettycandles gosh your parents sound just like mine! Although both of mine learnt from scratch, but they really do sound similar!

I agree it is crucial to learn the language and integrate. My point on this thread is that the OP had no idea under what circumstance the lady needed an interpreter...and was just jumping to the conclusion that she was being lazy. I admit that if english were my second language, and I were offered an interpreter for free to ensure my ante-natal appts were as clear as possible i'd use one in a heartbeat. Why leave anything to chance?!

I guess I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

We've just come back from France and on our last night ate out. My French is pretty ropy (C at O'level decades ago), but we had a go - as we did all holiday - and managed, with lots of laughter on both sides and patience on behalf of the waitress.

At the table next to us were some more English people who made no effort whatsoever, their whole order was done in English. OK, so even if you don't speak French for most of your conversation, surely most people know please and thank you in French. When I went to Spain, speaking absolutely no Spanish, I looked up please, thankyou, good morning/evening so at least I had something - even if they all immediately started speaking English!

Such a shame, as a few words are not difficult to learn and it's so arrogant to assume that everyone will immediately default to English.

Re hospital translations, yes it would be better to try and learn the language, but for medical stuff accuracy is vital, and maybe she just didn't feel confident enough to understand everything in a different language.

This has probably already been said but in this situation YABU. Maybe the lady can speak English but it's not her first language. She is about to have a baby, it obviously gives her comfort to have a translator there to help her understand everything going on during a very stressful and sometimes scary experience.

I don't see the problem with an translator... but I have a MASSIVE problem with the tax payer paying for it. Most other EU countries expect you to provide or pay for your own, what is wrong with this?

You can't cope with the language yourself? Fine, but that should not be the taxpayers problem! I don't think people understand just how much all these translators cost each year. If you need the help you should pay for it, it is not a basic right to come to a country, not speak the language and have the host country pay to translate for you. They don't do it in France, Germany or Spain and why should they?

YABU.
Other EU countries may not provide free translators but then they don't provide a lot of other things either. For instance, no free bus passes for youngsters or pensioners. On the other hand, other EU countries provide things the UK don't, such as free full-time nursery for 3-year-olds and up. Your argument from comparison with other EU countries is therefore rather weak.
As for learning English as an immigrant, I'm all in favour of it, but tbh because it empowers the immigrant, not because it's a duty to the host country. My duty to the UK consists in paying taxes and not breaking the law. The rest I do for my own sake - it gives me satisfaction to understand Shakespeare, or 'The Wire'.
The woman in the ward? Have you thought about how she would go about learning English? A friend of mine is an immigrant, with a 7-year-old. Since she got to the UK she has been holding down 3 jobs at a time, all menial and under-paid, while looking after her daughter. She has looked into English courses, but they are expensive and/or during inconvenient times, when she has to work. How about we discuss the resources actually available to someone who wants to learn English, has a job, a family to look after, and not much money?

Right, I've read the thread now and I still hold by my post. However I also agree with other posters that there are certain situations where it I'd perfectly reasonable to need an interpreter. Certainly people who cannot function in the language should be entitled to an interpreter, eg deaf people, or under circumstances where the nuances are critical, such as in court. But certainly not as a matter of course.

Interpreters should be available for a fee, or people should be encouraged to bring along an interpreter if they feel they may need one. And people should be able to get assistance with the fee if they are in financial difficulties.

Equally, doctors should make the effort to fit their language to the abilities of their listener. Often they insist on using only the medically-correct terminology, which makes it difficult for even the most literate of native speakers to understand them.

I think we make a serious mistake in attempting to provide everything in all languages. We do immigrants a dis-service that way. It discourages integration and perpetrates the isolation of certain groups eg mothers and the elderly.

PrettyCandles, I actually think we would discourage integration far more by making immigrants with a wide range of cultural backgrounds terrified of encountering any kind of official service e.g. healthcare, legal, council etc. by not assisting them with language needs. I think if we went back down this route, there would be far more insular immigrant communities who had no connection at all to the 'outside world'. I actually think this would be particularly unfair to women, given some of the cultural and religious reasons why some women struggle to have any contact with the wider community. I am convinced that making access to essential services in any way more difficult would actually increase isolation not improve it.

Agree with sc13 that looking into how much support there is for non-native-speakers who work and have family to look after, to access resources to help them learn English.

In fact, agree with sc13 on pretty much everything in the post above!

Also think that people who have never learnt a language to a level that can be described as fluent probably in general vastly underestimate how hard it is. You have to not just work hard, but have an aptitude for it in the first place.

D

And as for who is paying the bill, this could be applied to a whole load of situations. We all pay taxes, it's the price we pay for living in a civilsed society. I don't understand where this idea comes from that we shouldn't have to pay for things of which we happen not to approve, or from which we do not benefit personally.

D

I am a Speech and Language Therapist. I work closely with interpreters as it is essential to my work that children are assessed in their home language.

Many of the parents who attend with their bi- and multilingual children do speak English and avail of opportunities to learn. However, clinically, I need our conversation to be fluent if I am to obtain an appropriate case history and expect families to understand and carry out language intervention with their children at home.

Some parents feel a bit put out when I ask re: having an interpreter present initially, but if I had a pound for every time that I could see from the way someone was nodding and smiling at me that they were pretending to understand something they didn't, I would be wealthy indeed. Interpreters are vital, clinically.

'PrettyCandles, I actually think we would discourage integration far more by making immigrants with a wide range of cultural backgrounds terrified of encountering any kind of official service e.g. healthcare, legal, council etc. by not assisting them with language needs. I think if we went back down this route, there would be far more insular immigrant communities who had no connection at all to the 'outside world'.' I disagree - this is what happens in Belgium, no translation in the town hall etc, and we all cope.

What StrictlyTory said.

Fair enough if she needs a translator, but let the family pay for it. Yes, medical care is, and should be free, but having a translator is not a medical treatment.

If a translator is needed for any of the very valid reasons pointed out here, then it should be up to the individual to bring a friend or family member that can translate, and if they don't have any, then they can pay. I honestly can't understand what there is to object to about that.

When ds1 was a year old, we had to take him to a hospital while on holiday in Spain, and no translator was provided for us, nor would we have expected it. Yes it made the whole experience a bit scarier, but thankfully all was well. It's the risk you take when you go to a country that doesn't speak your first language, especially if you are pregnant.

scaryteacher yes I understand some people will cope without this added support, but I think it's a very different thing for a Brit or other European living in another European country where things operate differently but kind of within certain parameters. When I lived in Austria my German was pretty good but a hospital trip was still a bit eeek to be honest. And I didn't even bother trying to see a doctor to explain that I thought I might be suffering from depression, as I just didn't know where to start. That was after 9 years of formal German lessons and 6 months living there.

People from communities where women are barely allowed out of their houses or to speak to or be seen by men who are not family members have a whole other level of issues when it comes to integrating.

The healthcare professionals that I talk to through work often say the interpreter is just as important for them as it is for the patient. People's ability to understand and communicate healthcare information can be hampered by a whole heap of things, I don't think it is a big problem to try and make every effort to remove barriers.

And in healthcare particularly, it could quite literally be a life or death piece of communication, a bit more serous than not sending a form to the right place by the right date etc.

Some people, for a range of reasons some of which might not be their fault, need help communicating. I also think that if this country provides something that other countries don't, it doesn't make it automatically a bad or pointless thing.

D

"If a translator is needed for any of the very valid reasons pointed out here, then it should be up to the individual to bring a friend or family member that can translate, and if they don't have any, then they can pay."

So an asylum seeker, having fled her away from their homeland, quite possibly illiterate in their own home language, living on 75% of the "normal" benefit rates, with no choice over where they live, quite possibly only knowing other people that have fled to the UK is supposed to either pay up or suffer?

Many non-EU immigrants (particularly asylum seekers) come from countries where adult literacy is as low as 30%, and the you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be the women from these countries that have the lowest levels of literacy as well.

As the OP said she was not referring to those that have recently moved, or asylum seekers, that is what my post referred to. I do understand that there are circumtances where a free translator should be provided both for the benefit of the patient and the medical staff. If someone that has claimed asylum needs a translator, then that should be provided. But there are probably many cases of translators being provided free for people that could afford it, or could bring someone to help. In those cases, I don't think the burden should be on the state. Asylum seekers are a differnt issue imo.

you can be waiting for a decision for asylum for years, as others that have managed to learn a foreign language to a "workable" level have pointed it - it can take years and years to achieve fluency.

They may not know anyone else that speaks their language in their area.

Given that the OP didn't even talk to the woman in question we have no idea of her immigration status, or her working level of English, Or any other factors that could have prevented her learning English to a sufficient degree since she had her first child.