To think that more people nowadays have very odd expectations of parenthood?

[Nemofish]

We can't have newborns napping when they want to, we can't let newborns fall asleep on us as we have Very Important Things to do, we can't have them not sleeping through the night at birth???!!!

Not having a go at anyone on here, but I feel that some people have weird expectations. They are astounded when their very young baby won't be put down, they are amazed when the baby wants feeding every 2 hours round the clock and quite frankly, baby not sleeping through at 6 weeks? Well you must be doing something wrong then!!!

Even before I actually gave birth to An Amazing Non-Sleeping Baby, I knew that I would be spending weeks if not months and months with a baby attached to me (and I couldn't even breastfeed!) and I expected to be sleep deprived (check) and that things for me, like eating, sleeping and showering, would be taking a back seat to dd's needs (check). Also things like socialising or nights out opr hair cuts - just forget it.

But some people have really weird expectations, both men and women. Are we being fooled by idealistic and unrealistic portrayals of family life in the meedja? Or is it coming from somewhere else? I don't get it.

Yes, that was an issue for me, too.

I also thought I would cope brilliantly (i.e. better than anyone else) because I was well educated, middle class and had been to a nice ante natal class.

Still, I think I am a better person for being disabused of such a smugarse wanky notion. In fact, the whole dire experience has definitively dealt with any ideas I may have had that I was better than anyone else.

Having dc3 puke down the clevage of my top this afternoon certainly gets rid of 'smugarse wanky notions'
(top phrase, Druzhok).

Also loving the phrase 'sprogging out.'

"I did lots of googling for pregnancy related stuff, but never thought to ask Google to educate me on the nuances of childcare before giving birth"

Sorry, Sapphire, why on earth not? Did you not realise that a baby was going to come out? Or were you thinking it came with a manual? I honestly don't understand how someone without experience with babies, and without family support, can think that it's sensible to focus entirely on the pregnancy and not at all on the subsequent child. Pregnancy's just a means to an end, like a wedding.

BarmyArmy, are you seriously saying that a baby has no emotional needs, and as long as they're fed and clean that's all the parents should be providing? I'm really astounded that your post is being agreed with, when you are saying that a baby shouldn't be cuddled - not just that a parent shouldn't martyr themself, but that babies shouldn't be cuddled. Fucking hell, I hope you don't have children.

I couldn't disagree more with barmyarmy

I too had never really held a baby till I held my own (yes friends' DCs on the odd occasion and my nephewon our 2 week trip back to England who was born about 8 months before DS). I struggled with bfing but was too determined to give in and give a bottle and by the time I tried DS completely rejected the bottle so I ended up bfing till 17 months (it did fortunately get easier). I also suffered with PND which was dreadful and largely bought about by my comparing myself and DS to others around me and feeling completely inadequate.

However there is just too much pressure from all angles -damned if you do and damned if you don't. The vast majority of parents are just trying to do the very best they can to bring up their DCs. If that means following certain parenting practices that aren't necessarily what you yourself would do then so be it. What works for one will not work for another and hopefully we all manage to bring up happy children who know that we love them.

On the lines of LeQueen's parenting manual, I've been threatening to write a book called You Already Know How To Parent for ages. Except it wouldn't be very long, or have very many words in it.

I get so frustrated by all the parenting manuals that dictate step by step The Only True Way To Parent, and interventionist paediatricians, and watching my friends tie themselves in knots because their newborn will only sleep in a sling and someone's told them that it'll create bad habits.

When my daughter was tiny and had colic and was purple in the face screaming for hours as I walked her up and down singing soothing songs and cuddling her, the thing that killed me was feeling like it was my fault and I was letting her down. I wish I'd known that sometimes, even held close to you and soaked in love, they just cry. The sleep deprivation was fine, the crying was fine, the guilt and the sense of panic that I was missing something obvious that everyone else knew, that was not fine.

For that reason alone, I think and hope #2 will be easier.

' I think the later you have your children can also be a contributing factor.

Example: as a 30yo (and I know this is not old but...) I happily spent my extra cash on myself: long holidays, all-nighters, back-packing, weekends away, evening classes, clothes, pub, books, CDs and so on. I would sleep when I wanted to sleep and keep going as I wished. Never had anything decent in the fridge other than the proverbial cava and acidophilus....etc.'

Yeah but you get that if you have a child young too. We had ours at 23 but we never used to eat, sleep, were out every night and I think it helped me when I had our first. I was used to no sleep!

Young parents go through that to but the difference is it doesnt matter in their circles whether you go to fancy classes, or if they parent differently to others thats why there is less stress for them I think. If I didnt get dressed all day it didnt matter, if I did child led it didnt matter etc. I think older mums worry more about their image which causes all the stress.

Some of the things older mums worry about on here are insane no wonder they say they are so stressed.

I agree Londonlottie thats why so many divorces happen because for some reason soem parenst think once they have a child life stops, then they realise they have both become boring together and break up. It doesnt make you a better parent never having a break or a life of your own. It makes you a more interesting person if you have your own interests outside of being a mum.

Agree londonlottie re the social life thing, if you genuinely can't get babysitters or your dcs sleep is so bad it's just not worth it ever then yes, I can understand, however this is exceptional and even if babysitters are a problem you can always go out alone to a cafe/with a friend for one drink somewhere aftre the first few crazy weeks. Fwiw we were out after 2 weeks just in the pub down the road having a cheeky one whist dds Godmother kept an eye on her whilst she slept. As soon as she woke up we were able to get back to her within 2 minutes.

I have friend with an 8 month old who've been out once in the day to meet us in pizza express. She's a great baby feeds and sleeps through no problem and has done for months. They have no shortage of able and willing family babysitters (far more than us I might add) and yet they "can't" come out, martyrdom at the alter of parenthood me thinks.

I've not had twins so have not had the experience of looking after 2 babies at once but we have 2 dcs dd nearly 4 and ds 10m and after this weekend where dd spent it with her
grandma in Blackpool it seemed totally relaxing and a very easy to be just looking after ds with 2 adults.

Your post has haad me thinking all night and morning.... it is an interesting point but one that I don't agree with AT AlL

you are not talking about expectations of parenthood you are talking about looking after a newborn or a small baby.

We are increasingly isolated in our society and due to this have to look to manuals from mostly childless people telling us how our babies should "behave" which of course they don't and then the new mum gets upset and feels as though they are doing things wrong by their baby, not necessarily because they wanted to go out on the lash, or go on a fabulous holiday. I have had two babies who screamed and screamed and screamed when I cuddled them to comfort them leaving me feeling terrible, then someone suggested I put them on their own in a dark room and they went to sleep..... not all babies are the same and people are on here asking for advice as to what to do with their baby because they feel that because their baby is crying they must be at fault whereas babies just cry.

There is absolutely no reason why you should go through the day not having a shower or being able to cook the dinner, even with a small baby you just get on with it. With a 2 1/2 year old and a baby you just HAVE to, someone on here once said "It's a baby not a deity" and I totally agree, yes you keep your baby happy as much as you can and you keep them fed and clean but you still have to get on with your life and get out of the house. I would much ratdher that a baby had a happy fulfilled mother than a depressed hermit.

I think when women have a baby they expect to be able to Do it right and then they can't because it's impossible and then they want to try to fix it, so they're on here asking how to do it but nobody knows because they can't!

Yes there are selfish parents who don't wish their child to inconvenience them but that is nothing new and I don't think it is any more prevalent than in the "seen and not heard" days of the Victorian era or when people had wet nurses.

Sorry it was all a bit rambling.... I am sleep deprived with my still non-sleeping 6 month old

high five pancakequeen!

I didn't really have any expectations of parenting a baby. I just didn't know it would be so very, very hard (well, it was first time around for me, anyway). i thought I would have more control over matters. i thought that if I could just be strong enough, patient enough, organised enough it would all be OK. Pah. Babies have a way of letting you know who's boss from day one, eh?

Btw, I don't think it's selfish to want to resume some sort of order and calm to your life in the areas you can control. Second time around, I gave up on trying to force my baby to fit certain sleep patterns. However, I showered and went to the loo while she grumbled in her cot. It isn't the end of the world of a baby cries for a short period of time while you do a poo, FGS. Why didn't anyone tell me that first time around?

I think one of the main problems is that there are virtually no parenting classes in schools. There seems to be the ridiculous assumption that educating teenagers about caring for babies will encourage underage sex and teen pregnancy when, if they are told the truth about how hard parenting is, the opposite is likely to be true.

As the majority of teenagers will be parents at some point in the future, it seems stupid to not prepare them and let them make an informed choice about when to start their families.

I think there's a problem here with a monolithic definition of 'baby'.

My seven month old is a baby. He sleeps for about 3 hours during the day (1 and 2 or 1 and a half and 1 and a half) during which time I can go on mumsnet do Useful Things like wash or colour my hair, he can amuse himself for at other points in the day e.g. if I am cooking, I can put him in the playpen and go to the loo in peace. He's not a great sleeper at night, granted, but his three hours between feeds do equate to 10 mins feeding, 2hrs 50 mins sleep for me.

It was a different story for the first four months. I had no hugely strong opinions about what parenting style I should adopt: I was happy to try routine or have a Velcro baby as long as we all felt relatively happy with it. Yet, he dictated the pace, really. He had the most piercing cry you ever did hear (people in the street would stop me to ask was he ok whe he was only just getting going), he fed constantly, he resisted all naps.. there were, indeed, days where I didn't shower. I got on with it, I wasn't surprised (though I had hoped for a sleeping baby as my mother had told me I had been one. Sigh).

Recently, my SIL who is expecting was asking me about the first few weeks. I said that, if you're bfing, unless you're very very lucky, you can pretty much expect that the first few weeks might be a bit relentless and you will lose sleep and feed a lot; that it would seem a long time at the time but it would pass by quickly and was nothing to worry about and your dh can help loads and it's great too yada yada yada. Tried to keep it realistic but upbeat. She was horrified and told my MILsomething about how she didn't agree with newborns not following routine ( from me and wry smile fro MIL) because she simply couldn't just stay in for six weeks, she was intending to have lots of coffees in town what would happen her hair?

As it happens,she had slightly misinterpreted me as I said I had stayed in a lot during the first six weeks as ds was born during the heavy snow.. I did have some coffees during that time (easy when they sleep more). Even still, it made me wonder, is six bloody weeks too much time to stay away from Starbucks ? Are we really that selfish that the mere thought of putting your dc first for the very first six weeks of their life seems like sheer and utter craziness?

I don't think many people can successfully breastfeed without giving their lives over to their baby in those first few weeks. It's the way we are programmed biologically. You can have a wonderful sleepy baby who feeds efficiently but you are still on demand. I don't think missing the odd shower for six weeks is worth even mentioning, it happens and you get on with it and over it. The tiredness is more than sleep deprivation: it is mental exhaustion from the amount of new learning going on as you become so intimately acquainted with this tiny new person. So what if you're tired/your hair is a mess/you're all over the place? I don't think we do new mums any favours by telling them that they can expect life to continue apace in that newborn period. After a few months, yes, why not? But why with a tiny one? Just give in fgs!

There's no need to write a realistic, non-judgy parenting book. Lucy Atkins has already done it. In fact lots of recent books I have read have been very realistic and humourous even about how hard baby care can and will be.

I have made my DP read Atkins' book 'First Time Parents' as I suspect he has rose tinted ideas about life when your LO comes along.

I think a lot of it is the culture at the moment that says "women can have it all" - which makes you feel a failure if you can't keep every ball in the air, and ensure that they're sparkly, shiny and free of baby-sick at all times. I think it makes girls think that having a baby must be a doddle. Which it really is not, as I've found out this year!!

agree, the Lucy Atkins book is excellent-funny and practical

oh i dunno, am not sure people have any odder expectations of parenthood than they ever have. There has always been the routine vs go with the flow approach, and I'm sure some people have always expected to be out partying 2 weeks after giving birth.

The thing is no-one can anticipate what having a baby is like til it actually happens. Plus I reckon there is a global conspiracy not to mention the hard stuff to pregnant women. Hence when things seem to be less than rosy some people reach for the parenting book/routine to help them cope and seem to swallow all sorts of ridiculous advice...

I think people have unrealsitic expectations of almost everything; careers, marriage, parenthood, wealth, health... we expect everything to be rosy and react with horror and disbelief when things go 'wrong'.

The media and advertising in particular is to blame as they are the ones selling the unrealistic dreams and the products to 'fix' us.

thanks for the high five nancy right back atcha

When I was in hospital after having DD2 a woman in my ward and her partner were cooing over their lovely new baby. Her DP was on the phone to everyone he knew (all afternoon) telling them how good their baby was - how well she slept - how he and DP would be at so and so's wedding next weekend (their baby is so good she wouldn't be any problem to bring) - his DP was going to do a few days a week at work in London straight away etc etc etc. I thought 'FFS - it was only born this morning...'
Cue next afternoon.....Mum was in tears because baby had woken up a couple of times in the night and she was 'exhausted'. Nurses taking turns to comfort her and ending up taking the baby for a few hours so mum could have a nice bath on her own and get some sleep. Baby was barely 24hrs old. Reality bites, eh?