To think that more people nowadays have very odd expectations of parenthood?

[Nemofish]

We can't have newborns napping when they want to, we can't let newborns fall asleep on us as we have Very Important Things to do, we can't have them not sleeping through the night at birth???!!!

Not having a go at anyone on here, but I feel that some people have weird expectations. They are astounded when their very young baby won't be put down, they are amazed when the baby wants feeding every 2 hours round the clock and quite frankly, baby not sleeping through at 6 weeks? Well you must be doing something wrong then!!!

Even before I actually gave birth to An Amazing Non-Sleeping Baby, I knew that I would be spending weeks if not months and months with a baby attached to me (and I couldn't even breastfeed!) and I expected to be sleep deprived (check) and that things for me, like eating, sleeping and showering, would be taking a back seat to dd's needs (check). Also things like socialising or nights out opr hair cuts - just forget it.

But some people have really weird expectations, both men and women. Are we being fooled by idealistic and unrealistic portrayals of family life in the meedja? Or is it coming from somewhere else? I don't get it.

but some people's babies actually do sleep. i dont have any expectation about having a baby means you cant even make a sandwich or have a shower or whatever else someone mentioned, and i have 2 dc so not exactly like no experience.. not all babies are as difficult as what you've described. maybe some people expect it to be easier than reality but some people do expect it to be harder too?

I have to admit I thought it would be harder. Dd slept through at around 3 months, started to talk at 6 months and began walking unsupported at 9 months. She never had terrible two's, or three's, or, so far, four's.

I don't tell people this, so keep it all just between us.

"but some people's babies actually do sleep"

That's true. And some people's babies cry much more, or much less than other people's. Or feed quicker or slower, more or less frequently.

Which is why mums need to know about what constitutes NORMAL newborn behaviour - that it covers a wide range, and that if THEIR baby's sleeping, eating or crying doesn't appear to conform to expectations, it's not necessarily anything they are doing wrong as a parent!

It's all about balance really. If you're at the end of your tether, exhausted or frightened it's very hard to care for your children well. Self-care is a very big part happy and responsive parenting and HP need to make that clear to parents.

I too was a sucker for the Disney-peddled lie that babies were cute, talc smelling angels on earth who slept all the time and fed at regular intervals. I got a slap in the face when DS was born 5 months ago.

However, I enjoy being a mum. I enjoy that the focus isn't just on me and what I want to do. I love caring for him and learning about his needs. In fact, I'd say his total dependence on DH and I has taught us both a lot about life.

One of the best bits of advice I was given in the early days was from an elderly lady I knew. She told me to not worry if DS cried when we were out in public or when he was a bit grumpy as he is a baby not a doll.

I think if we see our babies as individual people rather than little pets we'll do much better.

I think some people do go into parenthood with blinkers on, sometimes. However, that 'martyr mummy' concept is very bewildering. OK... bad luck if you get a child that genuinely won't sleep, feeds every half-hour or screams its head off all day long but, in most cases, a baby is not going to come to any harm if you leave it alone for a while. Parents have needs too.

a lot of sterotypes abound about parenthood hapless and avaricious or martyr mum earth mother. most of us find our own niche

Being an older mum (39 when DS arrived) with a general attitude on me, I did manage not to be too bothered by a lot of the mad media guff about what 'proper' mothers do , and kept muttering to myself - and other new mums at post-natal group - look, if we;re not feeding them ground glass or leaving them on the bus we're doing OK.

i am just a little surprised at the number of people who don't know what having a baby is like. i don't mean the difference between knowing it and living it, i mean that some people just seem so surprised by the whole thing.

people on her have said 'the first baby i ever held was dd/ds' but how did that happen? babies are blooming everywhere, it's not like you're the first person in 100 years to have one, so how come there seems to be this great divide between pre-babies & those with?

i grew up with a large family, and every two years there was a new baby around. dh had a small family, no close babies, BUT we'd had friends who had babies, he'd done the 'isn't it sweet' & winced when my nieces screamed.

it just seems that there is a lack of social interchange that means some people miss out on experiencing babies & i wonder if countries that, stereotypically, are more family orientated, have less trouble with this?

I do agree with it being important to have family support I have loads of family, neighbours and friends that take my child whenever I need to. It is important to be part of the community, and thats why I never get these threads about not letting family members look after their child for the night or parents that think it makes them better not letting anyone else look after them.

I think its better to be brought up with a few strong attachment figures rather than the mum trying to do everything.

I desagree with LeQueen WRT sacrificing to methood because your life was really dull anyway. My life became "really dull" after dd1's birth because I realised as soon as I was told I was pregnant that the partying all night working all day and caring about none but myself was not an option anymore.

I think one really needs to live in a vaccum to not realise that when a baby comes life needs quite a few adjustments. No need to "sacrifice" everything but one has to accept that going out every Friday/Saturday night, sleeping through the night (somehow was easier to not sleep at all betwen fun and a workshift for some reason) and having time for oneself has to be postponed for usually more than a couple of weeks.

Yes Sunny there is no doubt in my mind that having family support arround does help, unfortunately, not everyone is fortunate enough nowadays to have that. If I had my parents arrounds or DH's it would probably have been much easier "having a life". But failing that, no I was/am not prepared to leave my DCS with just anyone so I can relax because I know that I will not actually relax. If that makes me a martyr, so be it but I certainly do not feel like one. I made choices ( have a large family in a foreign country where I have no family whatsoever) I have to take the "dull" life that comes with it.

"I think its better to be brought up with a few strong attachment figures rather than the mum trying to do everything."

Yes but when you are your children only family and they are your only family the way you attache to eachother is a bit different.

gorionine - A lot of the time its my husband who looks after her whilst I am out having fun. We just take it in turns.

Yep, that is a good plan too!

This is interesting - the idea that somehow introducing an element of routine and NOT letting the baby rules one's life is "selfish"?

I think that indulging one's own need to stop the baby crying and not having the balls to sit it out is actually what is selfish.

It's not nice to hear a baby crying but, provided nappy has been changed and it's been fed, to give in to that selfish urge to cuddle is weakness and possibly the cause of so many spoilt brats and indulgent parents today.

My mother was in hospital for 7 days when I was born (37 years ago) and had me presented to her every 4 hours for a feed. By the time she went home the routine was established.

Much better than all this, "follow your baby's lead" and "feed on demand" rubbish.

I think I mean the type of women who are married, have family about and lots of support but wont let anyone help. Cant touch the baby until you have wet wiped your hands and used hand gel, wont let you hold the baby etc but then spend all their time moaning about how they have to do it all. I know a few of these women unfortunately and they bring the stress on themselves.

Sunny2010 - same here...one woman I know has never let her husband (the children's father) have them to himself for more than 30 minutes, "because he's never be able to cope" - er, well if you never let him try he never will!

I too had zero experience before DD was born 3 months ago - however, thanks to mumsnet, and some parenting books I was pretty clued up about how hard it could be, so it wasn't a total shock. It was still unbelievably hard at first, you can't realise how hard until you experience it for yourself.

Unfortunately DP didn't and still doesn't accept the massive changes that a baby will bring, this is causing a few issues

I agree that having all the help you need arround and not using it is a bit silly, Sunny. I am married but somehow, going out on my own (even with friends) does not appeal to me anymore. I would certainly enjoy a night out with just DH though!

"Much better than all this, "follow your baby's lead" and "feed on demand" rubbish."

BarmyArmy, I think this is very personal to every parent. I felt much more confident following my babies lead (especially the first one) than "improvising" It worked well with Dd1 so I did the same with her siblings. I have got a lot of friends who have a very different approche to parenting (controle crying or feeding at the regular time of their choice), it is fine if it works for them. I just was never cut out for that. There might be a bit of selfishness involved in it too actually, I had never thought of it like that but indeed I would not have coped really well knowing that one of my babies is crying just yards away from me and do nothing about it. I will have to desagree with you though about babies only needing to be fed and changed.

Isn't there a role for antenatal classes in all of this somewhere?

There are so many threads on here from new mums saying 'my 2 week old doesn't like to be put down', and I remember thinking the same with mine too (and hating my MIL for suggesting that I leave him to cry himself to sleep - utter rot). Perhaps antenatal teachers should dole out slings at their classes and tell new mums to strap up and get on with life?!

LeQueen - even going to the loo is easy with a sling...

chicadee, when I went to antenatal classes for DD1 so over 10 years ago (not been for the others) the only subject that was talked about was the actual giving birth, there was no mention of what to do with the baby after. Maybe it is different now?
I have no idea.

gorionine - What so you dont even like going down town on your own to get your hair done, have some pampering, go shopping etc? I like doing that stuff on my own whilst my husband looks after our daughter. Its good to spend some time apart I think

No, not really, I am so used to have at least one of the dcs with me (the others are in school )that I do not crave doing it on my own, although, now that DD4 goes to nursery in the afternoon It gives me a bit over an hour every day to do a few things on me own.

I never felt that I needed to be on my own to do anything during the day (+ DH works in the day anyway)so he could not look after after the dcs for me even if I wanted him too.

Maybe I have become so boring that the thought of being in my own company is not really that exiting!)

I think the pendulum can swing too towards "baby led" at the risk of the mother becoming a burnt out, exhausted shell of her former self. I don't agree or believe in a certain well publisised strict routine approach to babycare either, I think it's cruel. And I will argue my point on that if neccessary.

I think there can be a middle ground and you can meet the needs of your baby whilst still maintaining some normality. In the old days as previously mentioned babies were parked at the bottom of the garden and fed bottles every 2 hours. also wider family routinely helped it went withiut saying, that's rare these days especially amongst middle class professional women. you're left to do it alone pretty much.

I never did the pyjamas all day thing, or no showers etc. It would have made my PND even worse. The main thing for me was to be clean, nourished with a bit of lip gloss and mascara on and out of the house once everyday just for a walk if needs be with a REASONABLE house. I also had y hair done with relative frequency and went out once a week from a few weeks in despite the tiredness. And yes I demand fed but I had no qualms about leaving dd with her dad for a bottle of ebm/formula if I wanted a coffee in peace.

I remember at an ante natal yoga class someone sneering at me when I said I was going to carry on doing astanga after the birth of dd. Despite the snorts and derision i still managed this as without it i would hav been evry unhappy. I think a lot of women do themselves no favours by becoming martyrs in their selfless devotion to motherhood.

Same here Gorionine, there was virtually no post-natal advice given at our ante-natal classes a couple of years back. It was all about breathing and other rubbish. Nothing about the normal range of behaviours for a newborn.

NCT antenatal teachers - listen up!