To think that more people nowadays have very odd expectations of parenthood?

[Nemofish]

We can't have newborns napping when they want to, we can't let newborns fall asleep on us as we have Very Important Things to do, we can't have them not sleeping through the night at birth???!!!

Not having a go at anyone on here, but I feel that some people have weird expectations. They are astounded when their very young baby won't be put down, they are amazed when the baby wants feeding every 2 hours round the clock and quite frankly, baby not sleeping through at 6 weeks? Well you must be doing something wrong then!!!

Even before I actually gave birth to An Amazing Non-Sleeping Baby, I knew that I would be spending weeks if not months and months with a baby attached to me (and I couldn't even breastfeed!) and I expected to be sleep deprived (check) and that things for me, like eating, sleeping and showering, would be taking a back seat to dd's needs (check). Also things like socialising or nights out opr hair cuts - just forget it.

But some people have really weird expectations, both men and women. Are we being fooled by idealistic and unrealistic portrayals of family life in the meedja? Or is it coming from somewhere else? I don't get it.

I was a new mother in the 70s. I was the kid in the park with a gang of little ones, I used to take the 4 week old daughter of my next door neighbour to the park along with her 3 sisters when I was 10, I babysat for them when I was 11 years old, so lots of experience of babies.

When DD was born when I was 21, I had appalling PND, I was devastated by the responsibility of being in sole charge of this little creature that cried and hardly slept.

Looking back I think it was the 'SOLE' part that scared me, ex was an arse and worked and played hard to the exclusion of DD and I, and my family were back in Wales. I look back in awe really at how I turned it around and had DS and, well the rest is another story!

I love being involved in my grandchildren's lives and spending time with my DD, I feel guilty that my mother didn't have that opportunity. I also love the way my daughter parents so we have no conflict there.

I work with young children and feel that there is an expectation in some families that the children will be small adults. I have known 6 year old with no toys, except PC, playstation etc as they 'make a mess' and 2 year olds who watch Dr Who and mainstream films aimed at adults.

I think there is a definate role for looking at parenting as part of PSE and in youth work as others have said, we live in small isolated units, and don't get these experiences as part of daily life.

Nemo, you were OP. How about a commune near Glastonbury?

Nemo, I think this is about your experience with your Mother, and while I'm sorry you had that, I'm pleased that you're not actually horribly judgemental about parents who don't instantly take to it.

I think one of the things you have to accept is that you and your Mum are not the same people; clearly you have strengths that she doesn't have (not slating your child to their face would be one of these).

I'm in a similar but completely different position to you; my Mum, Sis, and pretty much everyone else in the family all took to parenting like ducks to water. I found it a real struggle. They didn't martyr themselves to their children; parenting simply came naturally to them and they enjoyed it. When I had my babies, I expected it to be the same but I found it totally different. I struggled with breast feeding (made me depressed and nauseous, felt like fingernails down the blackboard) so switched to bottle from 6 weeks. I can't sit and do nothing in front of the TV; I have to knit or do sudoku or crosswords - all not possible with a child who wants to be held constantly. I didn't get on with the sleep deprivation and struggled to nap in the daytime. My brain itched with boredom.

I didn't get PND until pregnancy No2 (well, 4 really but I lost the middle two). That made a bad situation worse.

Yes, of course I felt like a failure; especially when considering how great every other Mother was. I longed to go back to work.

Over time, I have learned two things. One is that my Nan hated parenthood too. She loves her children, but found it hard; especially when they were babies. She was a secretary in the days when mothers were expected to give up their jobs and go home to cook and clean. She hated it. It appears that this isn't unusual and it's only how you handle those feelings that can make it 'wrong'.

The second thing is that different parts of parenthood are easier/more difficult for different people. Sis, who I'd considered as a perfect mother found the ages of 8-12 really hard. The children suddenly had social lives and things to do that excluded her and she felt bereft. Mum says she really struggled with the teenage years; she had 4, 3 of whom went through puberty in totally different ways but at the same time. She said that at the time it felt like she'd used all her patience up when we were small and just wanted us to grow up already.

So I didn't like babies when they were in their larval form. I bloody love the toddler stage though. This post has taken an hour to type, not just through length but because I've been breaking off to make mosaics with the 4yo. I love the clay and mess and creativity they have now. Husband struggles with this being a neat and rules person, but he knows he's going to enjoy other bits more.

It's all OK. It's all parenthood and while it isn't wise to tell your children how hard they were; it's also not wise to assume that everyone can do all of it perfectly, and that everyone enjoys the same stuff.

Sorry for length.

Totally agree.

As a midwife I see that a big reason people stop breastfeeding is because they are convinced that they don't enough milk because the baby is feeding all the time in the first few days. I do all I can to convince them that this is normal, all to do with boosting hormones/milk supply, won't last for ever, etc. They either don't believe me or do believe me and can't be arsed with it and switch to FF.

I do think that as midwives though we have to take some responsibility for it though through lack of antenatal education. Sometimes though people who have been to NCT classes are the same and I do wonder what they've been teaching them.....

A friend of mine got cross with her community m/w as the m/w couldn't tell her exactly how long it would be before her 6 day old b/f newborn would be in a routine and going 4 hours between feeds. Her and her DH who are both intelligent people rang me up and ranted about how crap the m/w was and should be retrained/sacked/whatever as she was obviously so crap. They needed to know exactly how many weeks/days/hours old the PFB would be when this happened. They refused to believe that babies are individuals rather than preprogrammed machines.

BTW, I'm just applying for a job as a Sure Start m/w and if I get the job which will mainly be parentcraft then this is something I really want to cover. Really think a parentcraft class along the lines of "The Reality of Life With A Baby" would be useful.

A very good idea stripeyknickersspottysock...!

Like other posters I think I was totally unprepared for the realities of parenthood. I come from a small familly so no relatives with small DCs, I was the first of my close friends to have a DC. I had very little experience of babies and small children.

I read masses on getting pregnant, being pregnant birth etc. It stupidly never ocurred to me to read up about babies. However, even if I had read any books I think I may have got the misguided impression that you could follow some sort of 'magic formula' to get your baby to sleep, feed etc- obviously not the case.

We arrived home with our tiny bundle without a clue what to do. I really really struggled during those first months and was convinced I was a terrible mother doing something wrong. Now I realise that DS was just a typical grouchy baby who was not that impressed to have been forced out from that warm, dark comfortable place in my tummy.

Would you believe I didn't even realise that babies slept so much in the day!! I was gobsmacked to realise this. It sounds so stupid now.

I went from a world where learning and hard work got you results. If I struggled with something I took a course or read a book. It took me a long time to realise being a mum required more of a 'roll with it' attitude and there are no 'right answers' because every baby is different.

I think more education about the realities of tiny babies would be a fantastic idea. Just to have known that its normal to find things hard, for your baby not to sleep, for breast feeding to take a while to establish etc would have made a world of difference to me.

Oh yes, I also think that with your Bounty Pack you should get a massive sticker saying this too shall pass.

I'd pre-order that, LeQueen!

hahahah at "this won't last for ever". i remember grimly breastfeeding dd (i hated the 1st 2 months, tolerated the next 2 and then enjoyed the last 2, only kept at it because i am pig headed) and counting down the days until she would no longer be a baby and i could 'pop out to the shops' spontaneously and come home late.

Also i agree that having a flexible routine, i.e., trying to be up by a certain time, leaving the house for a walk/coffee and trying to have regular bathtime, kept me feeling sane(r). and i never understood people who refused to go to the loo/have a shower without the baby in case it cried for a few minutes - although my showers are now never longer than 2-3 minutes and functional rather than relaxing.

babies do change your life but shouldn't rule your life i think...

Just a thought but does no-one have a Mum? Mine's as mad as a box of frogs and some of her ideas are a little left-field but at least she was quite reassuring in the 'is this normal?' stakes. She was also very good at saying 'put him down'.... because it is tempting to leap to attention at every sniffle!

If we have left our mums behind, maybe its because the advice on how to raise a baby has changed so radically in even the last 10 years, never mind looking back at when we were born. So the advice of mums comes across as antiquated or downright dangerous.... when it didn't do us any harm.... and we prefer to glean things from unrealistic books.

My mum is great at helping out with DS but was as useless as me when he was a baby. She couldn't remember anything (so she claimed).

She also said I "never cried" and "slept all night right from the start" . She couldn't understand where this angry crying bundle of mine had come from!!

I do wonder sometimes........

LeQueen, I'd buy that too.

I think one thing I'd add would be 'celebrate the triumphs, however small of your children. Remember those, especially when times are tough.'

It's particularly difficult when the tough times happen first. With DS, I could remember how lovely the early stuff was. I can't remember specifics and I know I found lots of it hard (I certainly know I complained a lot!). Still, I look back on his early days when he's going through a particularly rude stage and it calms me down and makes me smile.

With DD, particularly because of the PND and the fact that I had a brilliant and interesting toddler, I spent a lot of her early months thinking "I guess she's just going to be one of those children I will never love - oh well, as long as she doesn't know that's OK". If I'd have known then how much I'd love her now, I think it might have been easier.

No Chil1234 quite a few of us don't have mums... and yes funnily enough we have noticed how much harder that makes life with a little one.
On a lighter note I am so glad I'm not the only one here dumb enough to only read up on pregnancy and birth in mind numbing detail and not um... y'know the next 18 years.

Same poppet I have to guess what she might have said, mind you it would probably have been 'stick her outside in her buggy'

Oh Earthymama, don't tempt me!!!

Only one problem with communes, they are full of other people!

I don't think it's necessarily unrealistic expectations people have, just realistic ones of an "average" baby as described in all the books. I read several books about looking after a new-born and up to 1 year olds, and I expected sleepless nights, crying, dirty nappies etc etc. BUT, no baby is average, and I for one (maybe unrealisitically) didn't expect

• a baby that never naps, but cries constantly from tiredness
• not to be able to even go for a wee without hearing screaming
• to feel the lonliest I've ever felt in my entire life
• to be sick of people asking me "are you enjoying motherhood" for fear of screaming "no i bloody well am not" at them

Maybe I just didn't ask the right questions, or maybe if your motherhood experience is like mine, you just don't tell people who are pregnant because they really don't need that added on to their pregnancy worries!!

Like a previous poster I wonder if I'm finding this so easy* because I've had animals and not managed to kill too many of them. I'm still not understanding the "you'll never be your own woman" again martyrdom. I'm enjoying myself and bar a few hours sleep don't feel I'm missing anything.

Like LeQueen I find the dirty house/me more annoying than anything else - really, it doesn't take more than 2 minutes to throw a load of washing in - it's not like you need to watch it going around.

I'm also very flexible wrt what we're going to do for the day - BUT, if I know he's going to wake up in the next half an hour for a feed then I'll delay going out - not going to invite a difficult episode. I've been out on my own leaving the baby with my boyfriend and we've left the baby with "non family" as our own families live back in the UK.

"hot cuppa" hahaha.

*You're not "allowed" to admit that it's "easier" than you thought it would be. Another taboo!

Caveat- never slept much anyway.

I hate it when people ask me if my 11 week old is sleeping through the night - of course she's not - she's 11 weeks old!

Jacanne I agree with you. People always ask me "is DS good for you?" by which they mean "does DS sleep through the night for you?" When I tell them he's a great boy but doesn't sleep through yet they look at me like

Very annoying.

No Chil, I have no mum and, due to dh's job, we are living away from any family/friend support. I 'learnt' about newborns from books, reading websites and watching a few programmes about being a parent - and that doesn't really prepare you for the reality! Antenatal classes tell you about pain relief - the promised hands on stuff never materialised. I only found out about how to bf from MN well after the birth of dc2.

Am the first in my extended family and amongst friends to have a baby - mine was the first I'd held, mine the first my brother held, was the first my father had held for 30 plus years!

Nothing came very naturally, it all felt strange and alien to begin with. My mw gave me a routine to stick to as she saw being in perceived chaos distressed me.

Having made our mistakes with dc1, we've gone on to have 2 more and are much more chilled, now, and much more responsive to a newborn's needs.

It's been therapeutic, reading this.

I struggled like hell with my DS: like poppet and whatdoesn'tkillyou, I read every bloody thing about pregnancy and birth, but had no reasonable expectations of the reality of life with a newborn. The fact that DS was premature and we were kept in hospital for 2 weeks also totally threw me: any confidence I may have had dissolved in the face of my fragile, poorly baby and all the intervention that was necessary.

As for the support from family ... well, I had a miserable time trying to 'solve' DS, whilst being patronised to death by my inlaws and DH for worrying so much and squarely blamed for fact DS wanted to feed constantly and sleep on me. Bloody Baby Whisperer can f*ck off, too, for her shitty book that did nothing but make me feel worse. I could carry on, but I'm mainly pissed off with my own passivity and stupidity. It took me months to find the courage to challenge the opinions of those around me.

With DD, I set my stall out early, fired a few warning shots DH's way during the pregnancy and then did exactly what DD and I wanted to do ... which was feed a lot and sleep in the same bed.

I will always bitterly regret being so ready to swallow mainstream advice, but I think that the information given by health professionals given is often poor.

The exception is the young healthcare assistant who single handedly ensured we established breastfeeding, against the advice of other staff members. He was a star.

[catharsis - sorry]

Sorry have not read much past first few posts so forgive me if this has already been said...but I wanted to add (as a former person with unrealistic expectations of parenthood), that as well as people having very little experience of babies/ children before sprogging out, I think the later you have your children can also be a contributing factor.

Example: as a 30yo (and I know this is not old but...) I happily spent my extra cash on myself: long holidays, all-nighters, back-packing, weekends away, evening classes, clothes, pub, books, CDs and so on. I would sleep when I wanted to sleep and keep going as I wished. Never had anything decent in the fridge other than the proverbial cava and acidophilus....etc.

Parenthood was a massive shock to my system. I could have done with a good fortnight alone in a darkened room, just to recover from the birth

I got there in the end, but only with the care, patience and support from loved ones who bore with me til I became a fully fledged member of "the club".