to not give a toss about getting on the <boak> property ladder?

[Headbanger]

Oooo, my first AIBU

The Old Man and I were brought up, like most Brits I guess, to believe that renting was the preserve of the flighty and irresponsible and ill-advised, and that the only sensible thing to do was to buy your own home.

You know where this is going (no points for originality here): we are professionals, married 10 years, hoping to start a family, but cursed with being Londoners, and of the generation that began being gently and discreetly screwed into student debt by the Government and then being savagely shafted thereafter.

We have a respectable income, but it is so eaten up by debts and the cost of London living that we are focusing all our efforts on paying the debts off, and there is little left over.

There is no hope of us ever buying our own property: our jobs are public sector and/or the arts, and we would need to save a deposit of around £40k, and get a mortgage of something like 8 times our combined income. We're from unwealthy backgrounds, and there will be no bequests or lump sums appearing on the horizon.

Of course we could leave our hometown, but kindly do not suggest this because I don't see why we bloody should: our families are Londoners for generations, we know its very stones, all our friends are here, etc.

So (get on with it woman): AIBU to ignore all this guff about home-owning being the be-all and end-all, and be quite content renting? Our monthly rent is less than a mortgage payment would be; someone else pays for the plumbing; a nice couple come and mow the lawns; if it all goes bent, or all goes better, we can up sticks in a month.

And I'm talking planning on renting long-term here - ten, fifteen years, with (hopefully) children, and all that that entails. Maybe forever, unless one of us gets that pesky half-million book deal.

Is this irresponsible? Should we eat spaghetti hoops on toast (erm, even more than currently )and go live in Zone 72 or parts of the country we know nothing about, and where our friends are hundreds of miles away, just to say 'Oh yes, we own our own home you know'?

Do any other MN'ers rent from choice? Are you happy with it? AYBU?!

Most importantly, do you think there will be a cultural change, and people will care less about that holy grail of the mortgage, and tenants will (like Germany f'rinstance) get lovely long-term leases, with security and permission to paint over the sodding magnolia paint?

I thank you.

I think you are right.

We wanted to be 'homeowners'. As a result we are stuck in a small house in a crappy area - but because we live in the south east and prices are high (especially when we bought) it was all we could afford to buy.

Alot of my neighbours are renters - so have basically the same house as us - and dont pay rent because they dont work. we work our arses off and are still skint, just so we can own our house.

we are seriously considering selling up and moving to a better area - and renting if we have to. our local catchment senior school is dire - and i think that was the last straw.

I think the British attitude to renting has a lot to do wit hour less than ideal laws on the subject.

If I could, as in parts of Europe, rent a house knowing I would still be in it 10 years later then I probably would have stayed renting. But as it was I had 2 months notice when my landlady decided to sell my house and at the time (I live in a student town) it was looking impossible to rent anywhere as cheaply.

So I bought the house and stayed put, paying in mortgage+insurance+extras the same as I would have paid in rent at the other houses I looked at in the meantime.
trouble moving in the future

YANBU.

I LOVE being lucky enough to own our own home (in the North, where we get 4 beds and a nice garden for £200k) but the deposits required at the moment are INSANE and if you'd have to pour every penny you earn into the bank for YEARS to summon enough cash to get a mortgage (esp in London) the wider damage done to your quality of life and stress levels is possibly just not worth it.

Frankly so long as you don't move house every 5 minutes and there's little risk of your landlord/lady evicting you at short notice, any future kids won't have the foggiest idea whether you rent or not.

Renting or buying is purley down to personal circumstances and prefernece imo.

Our mortgage on a 3 bed detatched new build is less than renting the same as we had lots of equity in the last house we bought.

Plus I wanted something to leave the kids to help them when dh and i croak it.

Mil has the means to buy and pay similar mortgage what she is paying in rent (in the same village etc). She prefers to stay in rented. Dh and I can't really see the logic in that.

DH and I rent. My philosophy is that I would rather rent a gorgeous cottage with a huge garden in a lovely village close to friends and rellies than buy a hideous box with postage stamp garden in a faceless housing estate miles from anyone I know.

I also love the lack of responsibility and the freedom to move at the drop of a hat. Did you know that a major factor in America's slow, weak economic recovery is that so many people now own their own homes and can't move where the work is?

DH is 40 and managing director of small company, I'm 37 and am self-employed btw.

But do people really look down on those who rent?!

Lots of my friends rent but perhaps that's only normal in London, with its highly transient population (many of my friends are here for a couple of years for work).

TBH, when we lived in Spain, nearly all our Spanish friends owned their flats - many families owned several flats, mortgage-free and they were swapped between family members as and when they were needed.

I certainly have never looked down at those that rent.

I am 28 and a nhs midwife, dh is 27 and a manual skilled worker.

There is definitely a certain sort that looks down on us renters. The sort that drones on and on about property prices and who only want houses to keep getting more and more expensive. Possibly now these people are of a certain age too?

It does unless they pass it on to you. If they were to leave it to you you would pay it.

Gosh, thanks so much for all this - 'tis really insightful.

If I discuss with pals they're either a) owning or buying owing to be fortunate enough ot have private wealth, or b) in a similar dither as us, and it all gets a bit worrisome all round.

MrsC I am jealous of you now!

ExPat you're a ghostwriter?

And (re. queries as to whether people look down on renting) - I think they do; I feel as if they do.

Obviously, this is partly because I am projecting my own anxiety, but also because (for instance) putting 'tenant' on an application for a credit card (not that I've done that in years, thank God) feels as if you're losing 10 points, and because people say, "Oh you own do you?", and then, "Oh dear. well, you're saving then, are you?", and then "Ah. well. If you're happy I suppose...."

Etc.

When I spoke about moving recently I had a few 'oh you're renting, how horrible for you' comments from people at work and 'that must be so expensive'. That seems to be a common theory, that rent payments are higher than mortgage but not true in our case.

Well people in Ireland certainly looked down on renters, now many of them are very jealous. My BIL with two buy to let properties is certainly kicking himself now his job is unstable, and all his polish tenants are moving back home, leaving him with three mortgages! And yet a few years ago he was telling us we were crazy not to 'get on the ladder'.

Callisto - yes, you're right!

do you remember that brilliant IKEA advert that lampooned people who see their houses as a portfolio, or a rung on a ladder, or an asset, and encouraged folk to think of it is as a home, like you bloody should?!

I loved that ad. Made me feel all warm and fuzzly. Yes, we rent, but it's grown around us like a coccoon of homeliness. Oh God I hope my landlord doesn't try and sell....

Sorry, my post was to a query a few back about capital gains.

Meant to say that we are better off owning as rent for our house in our town would be well over twice what we pay on the mortgage, we have 2 dogs that many landlords wouldn't like etc etc. But we had a fair amount of equity and have bought a sensible sized house that we can afford on one salary etc etc. We could have stretched ourselves more when we bought but decided not to. We will have to move in 5 -10 yrs to fit in the number of kids we are after but we'll cross that bridge then!

I don't see anything wrong with renting (I also own a flat that rent out) and were it better for us financially we'd do it. I think this country ought to move towards longer term, more affordable lets for those that want (I say that with my landlady hat on as well!) that provide more security for both renters and landlords, it would be better all round.

Hello Headbanger & all, me & DH both work full time (local government & manual), we have 3 DCs and have been renting for the past 6 years. We have previously had a mortgage on a flat & house but due to changing jobs to a fixed term contract I don't want to take the risk. We spent the equity from the last sale to replace a loss in earnings, bad credit rating for DH doesn't help either!

I sometimes go mad about not 'owning' but it's never your house until the mortgage is paid - in effect you are renting from the bank. A family of 6 down the road have just had their house reposessed. I deff agree with the other comments about maintenance, although our landlord hasn't done any maintenance since we've been here! We are stuck with the magnolia thing too and they are really tight about sharing costs of improvements. (So we haven't done any )

To compensate we save the difference between rent (550) & mortgage and now have a nice savings pot. We also have nice furniture etc that we can take with us when/if we move.

I don't 'hide' that we rent but only one of our friends rents, everyone else owns. I do sometimes feel like the poor chavvy relation - "this is gaffa, she rents X's house you know"

It's such a class issue and there does seem to be so much emphasis on buying - more security & rights for renting would help to change this, along with a stop to the media tirade about 1st time owners etc.

Oooh, I think I'd better stop now

I watched a programme a couple of years ago on the merits of renting compared to buying, and I think it said that in some cases it works out better to rent than to buy because of the high interest rates and repairs, insurances etc. That obviously depends on the area you live and how much your rent is though

GAH Gaffa, how did you not punch them RIGHT up the bracket?

Mind you, you know what happened to me recently?

My colleague (sort-of boss) said, "Oh I'd so love to have you and Mr Headbanger to dinner, it would be so nice to talk outside of the office, and the kids would love you."

Then she leant forawrd and said sweetly, "The thing is dear you'll look around my house and think, Oh no I'll never be able to live anywhere like this, and you'd get terribly upset, so perhaps it's best you don't."

I am not joking, either.

I don't think YABU if this is the situation in which you find yourself.

However, I wonder if European attitudes to long-term renting are founded on a number of premises or factors (not all simultaneous), many of which do not apply in the UK. For example:

• some European countries are generally poorer, so many folks living in (often) rural Spain/Greece/Italy never had the income to buy, even if prices were comparably lower to the UK, for instance;

• ample or more state support for pensioners (therefore no need to acquire assets during one's lifetime);

• a stronger sense of family/community, whereby the elderly are looked after by family when their income drops;

I wouldn't be worried about renting while I was earning money; the anxiety would be that, when one retires and one's income drops, renting consumes a larger part of one's ingoings.

Many pensioners live in poverty (and the majority of recipients of housing benefit are pensioners), often exacerbated by the fact that housing costs - i.e. rent - are high.

It is not misguided to aspire to own your own home. I agree that house prices in the UK have got out of control (and require correction, which will probably come over the next 5 years), but this is due to a number of factors (esp. buy-to-let), none of which negates the value of investing in a home for your future.

Sorry, that should've been directed at Rubbersoul

But Gaffer can punch someone too if she likes.

I don't think it really matters what you do as long as you are happy.
But with regard to the long term, how will you afford to carry on paying rent for the rest of your life, if assuming you never bought?
say when you retire would you have pension & funds to continue renting or how does it work then? Also would you want your children to inherit something when you pass away ( I know its morbid!)just maybe an advantage of owning something even if its small.

YANBU. You are also not alone. Most of my friends are in this position. I have a few friends who have 'got on the property ladder' by buying cheaper buy-to-let properties outside of London while living in London.

London, eh? Can't buy in it, cant live without it...

And put it this way, those that can afford to own property in Europe, do so. Otherwise who owns all the property that people are renting?

I would add, though, that the thought of pouring extortionate London rents into someone else's pocket did eventually gall me enough that I bought a place here (above my means, admittedly, at a time when they were doling out mortgages like sweeties - and the mortgage is a millstone around my neck, but then so was renting).

I don't think (hope?) my friend realises she's doing it. It's a way of describing where we live in the village. God I hope that's it!

So glad I haven't been spoken to like you were, when it's someone senior at work it's not like you can tell them where to get off.

I have used the renting as a reason for my boss to keep up the pay rises, unfortunately that's not going to happen again for some time - assuming I'll still have a job.

Just realised we don't pay building insurance, boiler cover etc either which we did when previously. Plus we have a nice house/big garden/drive that we could never afford to get on a mortgage. We do live in the arse end of nowhere tho'