Payments to ex wife. Opinions sought.

[TheWaspFactory]

I'm told this is a good place to get opinions. Don't hold back please ladies...

I have a six year old son to my ex wife. We have been separated for about 2 years now and are on cordial, if not friendly terms.

He lives with her and I see him every other weekend.

I currently pay a considerable sum every month to my ex by way of child support. This amount is much more than I would pay through a CSA enforced agreement. I actually suggested this amount as I want the best for my son.

Living and financial arrangements have been agreed between myself and my ex wife informally.

I should point out that I'm by and large happy (well, satisfied maybe) with the concept if not the execution of this plan. Ideally I'd like to have full time residency of my son but my ex wife has made clear she doesn't want this to happen so for the moment, this situation is probably the best for all concerned.

However, I've an issue with the amount I pay and how it is used. I pay this cash for the benefit of my son - not my ex wife. I neither care nor know how she supports herself. The thing is I'm not convinced she is actually spending this cash on my son.

Would I be unreasonable to ask for receipts or some kind of evidence of where my money is going? I appreciate that a significant amount of this is rolled up in to my ex wife's living costs (housing, etc) which can't be separated from supporting my son and to be fair he's not exactly going hungry but I end up buying him most of the stuff I expect my monthly payment to pay for. For example, I end up buying the vast majority of his clothes when he's with me, most of his schooling expenses (trips, uniform, etc) are paid by me, toys - again by me. All the material things end up at my ex's home.

As far as I'm concerned I'm supporting my son - not my ex wife. This money is meant to pay for him, not her handbags and holidays.

I'm tempted to tear up our agreement and go down the official route. As I'm self employed the amount the CSA would specify would be a fraction of what I'm paying now. The balance I could put in to a trust or similar for my son when he's older.

However, before I do this, I thought the receipt idea might be a fair push to actually get wife to spend my money on my son.

Opinions please? I appreciate that this may not be a "popular" post but thought a view from the "other side" might be enlightening...

The bottom line and the point he's realised is that the parent with residence of the child can in reality stop all contact if they choose sadly and the law is wrong not to enforce the other parents' rights but that's how it is and will beu ntil they start jailing mothers who deny contact or forcing the child to be handed to the other parent if the mother doesn't allow contact.

So whatever the amounts you might by law be obliged to pay, the result if you reduce the sum might be less contact.

Some bills like school and university fees parents pay direct as I do and am obliged separately to pay under the court order and families where both work full time and have proper careers the biggest expense is child care for 3 under 5s which is either 3 nursery places or a full time daily or live in nanny which is going to cost you about £60k income grossed up at 40% before tax or £30k each if you both work or £25k net or whatever is these days. In other words to enable the resident parent to work full time requires both parents to be paying a lot for child care. £2500 pcm doesn't go that far on some lifesyltes. It would barely pay school fees for 2 of our 5 never mind feed them o r house them.

Ladyanonymous I thought the idea of a joint account with an ex, where there is a strained relationship anyway an odd idea- and most probably unworkable.

I can see it in cases where people get on, but in those circumstances, there is probably no need!

mjinhiding you sound like you've been really responsible in ensuring your DS has a relationship with his father, it's really refreshing to read about.

Ladyanonymous By Jove, I think we did!

I agree mjinhiding

You are making me all goosebumpy mjinhiding that is lovely and well done for sticking through the hard times.

OP, as you realise, it (changing the financial relationship) probably would be tantamount to kicking a hornets nest, plunging the ?cordial? relationship into all out war. Could you not ask for more access in the meantime?

If she ever introduces going the legal route, make damn sure you get joint custody at the very least.

I think he's been frightened off.

I'm sorry OP but I just don't get it. I'm not a bitter ex wife by the way but one thing you don't seem to understand is that the cost of bringing up a child and your own living expenses are inseparable.

For example last week I spent about £15 taking my son to pizza hut in the evening. I know this isn't a necessity but that is what it cost for BOTH of us to eat and drink. I'm sure the OP would begrudge paying towards my meal but the point is - is that I would never have gone there if it wasn't for my son. It was a reward for him doing well at school that week but an adult can't refuse to eat at a restaurant. Therefore my own expenses are far more because of my son.

Maybe this is a bad example but it is the same for films, days out etc, etc.

Not to mention that before I had my son my full time wage was 3 times what I now earn. I work part time and for far less money so that I can pick him up from school twice a week and not be too stressed in the evenings to help him with his homework.

I hope I am explaining this clearly, the bottom line is that you cannot separate your son's living expenses from that of your exes and that she has far less disposable income as a result of looking after your child full time.

If this post is really about wanting more access, then I am more sympathetic but if it is about money then I think you have absolutely no idea how expensive it is to look after a child.

I was a single mum for years (now living with a new partner). Go to the CSA. Unless the mother has a disability that prevents her from working, or your son has special needs, then it is just as much the mothers' responsibility to earn money to look after your child. Pay what you would through the CSA then put other money aside in a 'trust fund' for your son if you can. When I was a single mum (of 3) before my epilepsy was diagnosed, I had lots of crappy jobs, working weekends in a petrol station, working in a newsagents, working full time doing shelf stacking etc. And I was receiving the grand total of £30 a week maintenance. No you shouldn't be paying your exes living expenses, that's HER responsibility, especially if she want to have residency when you can obviously afford the additional costs that come with having a child full time. The only thing you are responsibile for is paying 15% of your income to your ex to cover costs for your son. After that, it's her problem how she affords everything. And this is from someone who spent 6 years as a single mum.

"This wouldn't be illegal by the way - just good accounting. The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion if you will."

Some extreme hair splitting going on here, methinks... Sounds slimy, dishonest and mean spirited.

"Having considered the replies here and having had time to actually think about it, it's an approach I'm extremely unlikely to take as it would more than likely hurt my son and will probably mean I see him even less than I do now. As I've said its something I can consider in the event things go completely South but at the moment - unlikely."

And that sounds like some sort of threat.

"I don't believe that I should (for example) have to pay for my son's haircuts or Scout Beavers uniform or footwear or his clothes when the agreement was that day to day this would be provided from the maintenance payment. I'd much rather spend what little time I have with my son at safari parks or museums than shopping for clothes because he's arrived in the same shabby stuff for the third visit in a row." Paying for scout outfits or haircuts is not the same thing at all as paying for regular day to day clothes. And haircuts are up to the parent with residential custody surely? Do you decide that your DS needs a haircut and go and pay for one or does your ex give you some sort of list at visitation weekends, a list of things that need paying for? You are confusing paying for things you think are necessary with things your ex would probably pay for if you didn't pip her to the post -- why would she take your son to have anther haircut if you just did, for example, or buy him a once-off item like a scout outfit, if you've already done it. You haven't answered any questions about why you think all this extra expense is needed. There's a difference between buying ordinary clothes and special outfits too, and to be honest, your DS could probably care less what he wears and for all you know picks out the clothes he wants to wear to your house and would be happy to wear the same clothes for a week.

You come across as trying to score points here, without explaining who is forcing you to spend all this extra money. And if no-one is, then whiny about things you choose to do.

BTW, My DCs wear/ bring with them the same outfits every time they visit their father because the man is incapable of putting on a wash without ruining everything coloured in it, or pretreating stains, or checking everything is actually clean before bunging it in the dryer where stains can be well and truly baked in. I knew from years of him ruining my clothes what to expect.

Just to say at joint bank accounts!!!

and yes ladyanon that means we just agreed on something too!

Imagine telling a new partner you had a joint bank account with your ex!!

Imagine my DPs ex rubbing her hands together at this thought!

Also, those who are slagging OP... are you not also wanting to sling mud at the woman who is happy for the fether of her child to pay for the child but not to have hardly any contact with him.

Its like saying that all fathers can contribute is money. Theres a hell of a lot more to being a father than that. And whilst I agree with stewiegriffinsmoms last post, I would rather go with less money from DDs dad and have more contact for her from him.

Most of us mums have the ability to support our kids financially but not the ability to be a father to them.

oh FGS
will you people read
He is paying twice what the CSA recommends, so if he goes down that route, officially she will get less. he is not talking about "tweaking" his income so she gets less than she needs.
sorry Wasp, you are not going to win here.
I think he's already given up anyway

domeafavour he did mention something about if he tweaked his self employed income he could get away with paying her next to nothing. But I beelive he said it to illustrate a point that he 'could' and that a lot of men 'do'.

He is clearly not going to even contemplate going through with that. He obviously wants to contribute fairly form other things he has said. I think it was just an agry statement in resonse to the hostility he received from some, to illustrate that if he really was this shirking useless waste of space dad that people were making out he is.. he could go down that route.

foureleven,I went back and re-read the "tweaking comment"
It doesn't really make sense,and I think it's been completely taken out of context. he doesn't have to tweak his income to pay her less. If they went down the CSA route, the amount they would tell him to pay would be less

but yeah
he is not going to do this, doesn't want to do it, he was trying to illustrate some kind of point

Indeed, I think he should be being commended, not bashed.

I dont mean he deserves a medal or anything because he should be doing his bit for his son. but he pays TWICE the reccommended amount, plus he's a succesful hard working guy who is therefore also paying a lot of tax.

IMO he's picking up the slack of a lot of waster dads out there.

foureleven - I agree, I think many of the posts on this thread relate to useless fathers who don't contribute anything much at all to their children, which is not the case here. Sometimes it seems that posters project their own feelings and circumstances onto an entirely different situation.

You sound just like my stepdad, and I feel my deepest sympathies towards you

I have no advice, but can't believe you're being spoken to like a second class citizen because you want to know how a considerable sum of money is spent. My XP gives me FIVE POUNDS A WEEK, and asks me where it's gone. He usually gets a reply such as "it paid for half a box of nappies, THANKS". He is fighting paying the £40 CSA have told him to pay as he thinks it will pay for me to smoke, drink etc.

You sound like a fantastic father, and I hpe that your problems get resolved, and you get to see your DS more often.

i havent read the whole of this thread but i have some genuine advise.
firstly i am my husbands second wife. we have been together 10 years married for 4. he has 3 children with ex wife and we have 1 together.
he has always ever since ive known him paid a considerable amount in maintainance. over double what the csa would recommend. He agreed this settlement so ucant just rip up this agreement and go with what the csa say( if your circumstance are similar and the agrement was part of divorce settlement agreed thru the courts)
we still pay 650pm per child even now when the eldest (19) is working abroad for 3 months.. as far as we can see that money does not benefit the SD at all as she doesnt have to pay anything food clothes etc for her and we have also been asked to paid her rent over summer in uni house in addition!
although our child is preschool age i have no option than to work full time to help support us all.indidentally we also pay for as many extras as we can - trips, clothes for prom etc. if we can poss afford it we do it.
if you can afford it i suggest you just swallow if for the sake of your child as
any change now in payments is likely to be used against you with the child by the ex.
we are both working our arses off to provide for all the kids. they will thank us for it one day...i hope!

sry just seen you are not divorced so nothing formally agreed yet?
u should like you are trying to do the best for your son without being taken for a ride.
hope it all works out for you.
remember when hes older he might WANT to spend more time with you. more weekends to do football golf etc!

You always see this dichotomy between first and second wives. All resident parents know how expensive children are.

1. You usually work less. I have worked ful time despite having 5 children here 365 days a year (not my choice, I'd rather he shared them) but even with me having the children reduces your earning capacity. The answer in my view is force fathers to have them 50/50 whether they like it or not.

1. You need to house them. I couldn't house 5 children and me and my work in a one bed flat so it does have an impact on housing costs, a huge one in my case.

1. There are huge daily calls on you for money if you live with children, even if it's just an ice creaam. Those are not met by the non resident parent.

1. The univesrity stage is expensive too. Someone mentioned rent over the university holidays. That's a good example, plus they often need to be fed in univesrity bolidays and most parents don't make them pay for their food. In fact my court order says even if all 5 live with their father as I earn more I pay school fees and university costs and the latter has been 14 years post A levels between the older 3 so far with the younger two still to go so it odesn't just end magically when they turn 18. But a non resident parent seems to lose sight of the costs. One answer might be for a week to send the non resident parent a list of every single thing that's been paid for. These are not my issues. I pay for the children 100%. I could get a CSA order (anyone can after 12 months after a divorce order by the way and CAN undo the previous order I believe but take legal advice) but it would be minimal so I haven't bothered and didn't want to undo our deal but it's all expensive.

I worked today so paid for one big son to take the other two to see toy story - sot that's toy story x 3. Now they could have just stayed home but they haven't been out much. Then someone popped out to the shops and neede dmoney etc etc... I don't think non resident parents are aware. If they were forced to have the chilren 50% of the time it would all change and plenty of parents who work full time do go for one week on one off.

Stewie my ux husband is not a shithead, he has done some shit things - as have I many of us do when we get divorced - but that does not define him. I may have given that impression which is unfair on him - he is a great Dad whom my dd adores.

My orginal reason for not taking maintenance was out of anger as he asked for receipts. I also went through an awful phase where we bickered about money and I wanted that to stop.

But now I do not need the money. I have remarried and my husband and I support my dd, she does not need a third adult contributing into the pot. There is only so much stuff a child needs. I earn more than my ex husband and he now has another child to support on a limited income. Any money I take from him is money he cannot give to his new child.

At his own request he has a savings account for my dd and contributes by buying many of her clothes.