To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

"I do find the banning it very unsavory surely its a freedom of speech thing"

You can still talk about the burqa so no, it's not a "freedom of speech thing".

in some areas you may get chatted up and men pestering when you dont have your face covered and if you are out without a husband/man/whoever like i said it depends on the area

men are supposed to have a beard on their face so thats the rule for them, we dont have to do everything exactly the same. dont see why its such an issue when women are happy to wear it. noone would want their husband to wear it aswel they only want to wear it themself.
i doubt your dh would wear your dress and you go out in his work suit.. some clothes are for one gender or the other, its not something that only happens for muslims

its nothing to do with inviting rape, that was quite wrong what that imam has said about that

tryingtoleave - "nonsense about human rights"?! Imagine you wouldn't be so dismissive if something that you took for granted as being able to do was in danger of being removed (ie right to vote). Its the respect of human rights that underpin the lifestyle we enjoy in both Australia and the United Kingdom, and that make them "civilised" countries. We do have a right to wear what we like, within reason (ie public decency rules permitting), and like all rights (ie liberty, having the vote, freedom of speech - which we are all exercising on this thread!!), should be protected unless its absolutely necessary they be limited.

It is not the same! Just because there are differences between women and men in western culture does not mean that the differences between women and men in an extremist muslim culture are not greater or more offensive.

I rarely get chatted up (perhaps I would be better off in a society where my face was hidden ) and the only place I have been bothered by men was in Turkey, presumably because I had no male protector with me.

I am not dismissive of basic human rights; I am dismissive of foolish human rights discourse which calls everything that anyone could want a human right and thereby devalues the whole idea of a right. Voting is not the same a being able to go about naked, for example.

"So if we banned the burqua [sic] today so they were no longer considered the norm, how many muslim women would want to wear them in 20 years time when they hadn't been raised to think they were compulsory ?"

Burqa is not "the norm" among Muslim women and it definitely is not "compulsory" in Islam. Quran does not mention it at all and says nothing about needing to cover one's face.

It's also common around here eg in the play park to see very young girls - 5 or 6 with their hair fully covered.

I always thought it was from puberty girls covered themselves?

Youngest I see veiled are the 11 year olds on their way to school.

'in some areas you may get chatted up and men pestering when you dont have your face covered'

Western men will take their cues from your facial expressions and body language though, and if you give them the 'go away' glare, they tend to do so. You also seem to be making the assumption as well that a male talking to you would want to pester you or chat you up. They could just want directions or to know where the bank is, or as happened to me, to find out how the ticket machine in the underground worked.

Firawla - re "men are supposed to have a beard on their face so thats the rule for them"

There is no such "rule" in Islam. What are you talking about?

There is no mention of the beard in the Quran.

they put them in little hijabs @ that young age to get them used to it also the little girls often want to wear it to be like their mum? from puberty its compulsory not for age 5 but if they are happy whats the harm?

The bit where you say 'to get them used to it' is the harm, in my opinion.

its in hadith...
depends wat madhab u follow maybe but definitely in hanafi school its wajib, and according to others they are also supposed to have it. surely u know beard is sunnah???
not all rules come from quran theres also hadith which must b considered & followed because it says in quran obey Allah & his messenger

It sounds like you expect girls to refuse wearing the headscarf at puberty if they are not "used to it" from early childhood.

Why?

And if they refuse, should that not be their choice?

Like, you know, a "freedom thing"?

It is in hadith but surely you know that hadith is all hearsay. You don't have to follow any of those supposed words that have come down like Chinese whispers through many centuries.

Quran says that it is complete, fully detailed, and perfect. It is all you need to be a good Muslim and covers everything God expects of you.

And beard is not in the Quran.

Therefore, beard is not a "rule". A man does not have to grow a beard to be a good Muslim.

'To get them used to it'. Man, that says it all, really.

Yes, men and women adopt different styles of clothes, but the burkha is not clothes. It is worn over clothes and hides the entire body. A beard does not even begin to cover the face in the same way.

It is an issue even though some women are happy to wear it. Again, I have to ask myself, even if others are not willing to, why are men not happy to cover themselves up so totally?

And for every woman who chooses to wear it (and choice within a set culture is not the same as freedom of choice), there are plenty of countries where they have to wear it.

You can bang on about it being their choice as much as you like, but if they'd never been conceived of until today, and were now presented to only women to wear, I can't imagine the take-up and defence of them would be very high...

If the burkha is such a wonderful, empowering thing, bestowing dignity and modesty left right and centre, why don't all Muslim men and women rush to embrace them, and why have they not been adopted by any other cultures?

Just for the record, no catholic women dress like nuns who have devoted their life to Christ. You are so wrong. And yes Dublin is in the south, duh, I have relatives in the North and the South, so I don't need a geography lesson. Thank you.

"I disapprove of what you wear, but I will defend to the death your right to wear it," as Voltaire almost didn't say.

If we value our freedoms and our open and tolerant society, then we must allow people to choose what they wear, no matter how wrong-headed we believe that choice to be. That we can have this debate is testament to our freedom.

However, to contribute to that debate, I do disagree strongly with women wearing Burkha or Niqab for several reasons:

• Humans are hard-wired to respond to people based on their facial expressions and body language: 80% of face-to-face communication is non-verbal. It is a natural, evolutionary, human response to be unsettled by someone whose face you cannot see;
• The 'women must be hidden and protected like precious jewels' argument used to be used in this society in pre-suffragette times as an argument for why women couldn't vote, take part in politics, work or go to university. Women were precious and delicate and had to be protected from the big bad world. I'd rather take my place in the world, as an adult and a citizen, thanks;
• It's not a requirement of Islam or the Koran;
• If you believe that Allah made you, then Allah gave you a strong, healthy face and body that you might take part in life, not hide it away and risk major health problems that come from lack of exposure to the sun;
• To cover yourself from head to foot so that men can't see you makes you as much of a sexual object as if you were dressed like Jodie Marsh. You are essentially saying, 'my body is only for sex'. You are also saying that men are children or animals who can't tell right from wrong or be expected to control themselves;
• why would you assume that exposing your face means you will only be judged for your looks and/or sexiness? Haven't you noticed the many, many ordinary women walking around with perfectly average faces, just getting on with their lives? I do agree that the UK media do seem overly fixated on how women look, but this is something we should be able to discuss and challenge without resorting to hiding our faces from the world.

I could go on, but this is getting a bit long...

r u a muslim cote dazur?
because u have to accept hadith as a muslim... so bit confused you saying this if u r muslim.
how do you know how to pray salah then if you dont accept hadith?
no not saying would refuse if not used to it, thats just twisting my words totally. some families like to make it easier for them by getting them used to it a bit before they are older, thats all, not everyone wears it as a child as im sure you know, not everyone even wears it as an adult

I blame Bollywood!

If it's so liberating and a free choice, why would anyone need to get their daughter 'used to it' at a young age? That suggests that there is no choice tbh. It also implies that it is restrictive and oppressive, because you have to 'get used to it'.

What about female circumsision, no wonder the west fear islam!

oh fgs what has female circumcision got to do with it, we dont have to do that. now you are just fear mongering and being ridiculous

Ok let's not go there, then.

Seeing, breathing properly, smelling, communicating - basic human rights, yes?

beard doesn't impact any of these. burkha does.

It's so depressing - just can't talk about it anymore.

[i have a dream emoticon] one day men and women will be equal and we won't have to have these discussions about why it is a bad thing for a woman not to be able to look at her fellow humans in the eyes as an equal.