To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

When feminists have thought about clothes it has always been to make women more comfortable, more able to act freely in the same way as men do. The burka limits women - it doesn't empower them.

but what if people dont want to be the same as men, and are happy with their own seperate roles in society/marriage etc?
surely their own choice...

It's not about being different it's about being 'lesser'.

Lots of women choose a different life to men but that is different to living in a culture where you have to walk behind men, can't drive, can't travel without your husband's permission and where your only value lies in your sexual virtue, which a burka is meant to protect.

As I completely loathe Islamic rule and would never wear any Islamic dress I will NEVER go to an Islamic country.....do as the Romans an' all.

thats just your own flawed perception though because it is nothing to do with being lesser. a lot of people describe it with the example of how the cheap tat fake jewelery would be out open for anyone to touch and look at but precious diamonds kept in a cabinet carefully and away from harm
i can guarentee you that those who wear it, for those women and for those families it has absolutely nothing to do with being lesser.
wearing skimpy clothes in public is seen as something lesser (no offense to those who wear it obv thats your choice)
wearing niqab and covering up is seen as being dignified, having honour and being precious/protected

we dont have to walk behind men and thats not true at all about the only value being sexual, there is a huge importance and status in islam for mothers, and all women are supposed to be respected. not being able to drive is not from islam it is specifically a saudi culture thing, the scholars from there admit that themselves, but travelling without permission thing is true yes

showing your face is seen as 'lesser' firawla?

But that is my point - your example implies that the only precious thing about women is their sexuality which is hidden!

You are saying women are like a commodity, a piece of art or jewellry, that is precious because it can be hidden from public view.

also, protected from what?

"A lot of people describe it with the example of how the cheap tat fake jewelery would be out open for anyone to touch and look at but precious diamonds kept in a cabinet carefully and away from harm" Another example of oppression and ownership of women, keeping her hidden from the view of those 'lust filled, can't keep their hands to themselves men'.

Why don't men hide their faces? Their hair?

And the idea that it's bound with honour just makes my blood boil. Honestly such a divisive and horrid religion, encourages division and judgement that has fuck all to do with goodness, kindness and compassion and everything to do with status and submission. I truly fear for humanity if Islam continues to spread.

Posie - we are talking about the burkha (which Islam doesn't suggest wearing) - not Islam itself. Islam is not a 'divisive, horrid religion'. Please don't make this develop into a specific-religion-bashing thread. That is just wrong.

Men do not have to hide because they are considered to be more than a chaste possession whose only value is that chastity.

Sorry, I think I've said that a few times but it makes me angry too. And all this nonsense about human rights! Since when is there a right to wear whatever you want.

no not your face!! i said skimpy clothes as in very revealing clothing, even those who believe niqab is compulsory accept that there is valid view of it being not compulsory (mostly, v v few would argue otherwise)

protected from being bothered by people but i think it does depend what area and society you are in because for me now ive took it off i feel nearly invisible as compared to everyone staring before, so im finding this better but some areas where majority wear it then you fit in more & draw less attention with it

posie islam has a lot to do with goodness compassion kindness etc, that is extremely important for us. dont see how covering negates any of those things at all. do you even know any muslims, you do seem quite full of hatred, and judgmental yourself

trying to leave yes but we dont really see it like that. its more like people want to be valued for their character and whats inside cos you cant see all their body, so wont be so much judged for looks. you have to admit in some societies people are judged alot on looks whether too fat/too thin/hair not looking nice/make up etc so what many people feel with covering up is that it frees them from that. which hijab does aswel you dont necessaarily need niqaab for that but niqaab is just the step further

The burkha is an Islamic thing, Islam carries many themes which go alongside the Burkha.

Firawla - your arguments are just making me more and more incensed on behalf of women!

Since when was the human body considered to be 'cheap tat'?

Again - why is it so important that women keep their sexuality, (or 'cheap' tat ) hidden away, but men are not required to do the same?

I am still yet to see anything like a cogent argument for the way men and women are expected to behave differently.

Once again, what is pronounced to be the truth in theory, is not at all what happens in practice.

'Heels are FAR from empowering, you've just been brainwashed by society, just like women who wear burkhas and niqabs.' Nope - I have not been brainwashed . I have however worked out that a pair of killer heels make me at 5'2" somewhat taller, so I prefer them in the classroom to a pair of stilts, or scaffolding, or a box to stand on, when I am teaching 15/16 year old boys who tower over me. Alternatively, as I also said, a pair of solid black knee boots with buckles so that I can stomp around in a satisfactory manner make me feel empowered.

Firawala - I wear my diamonds, I don't lock them up.

its a metaphor it doesnt mean women themselves are cheap tat, may not have explained too well :\

But it is not really about character, but how chaste or modest you are, isn't it? You just said people who dress immodestly are lesser. You aren't judging them on their character but on what they wear.

I dont personally think they are lesser was just explaining that many people do actually think that and why covering more is seen to be good
we are supposed to have good character and dress in the right way according to islam ie modestly and covered but not necessarily face, so the interior should be good with a good character, and the exterior should be modest we dont focus only one on or the other but both interior and exterior, if that makes any sense

Cheap tat is actually quite complimentary. Here in Australia, an iman notoriously likened immodestly dressed women to meat left out for cats.

Ok - but it is covering the face that we are discussing.

Are people 'bothered by people' for showing their faces? Really?

what do you think about why women do this and not men?

implying that they were inviting rape

I think they should ban the burka in places where seeing the face is important such as airports or when you need to give ID otherwise they can use it whenever they want.