To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

beast...there are lots of moderate and nice Muslims, the religion as a whole is frightening.

beast - Your ignorance has somehow begotten hate.

"Iman" means "faith". What you mean is "imam".

No religion "empowers" women. Bible is full of crap re women - Lot offering his virgin daughters to an army of soldiers so they will stop banging on his door, "Suffer not a witch to live" because of which tens of thousands of women were burnt to a crisp in Europe, a dress code for women that forbids any men's clothing. Oh and let's not forget that Bible actually tells women to be submissive to their husbands.

So, the fact that Christians in the Western world have brought women up to equal status with men does not mean that your religion has enabled this. It just means that you have learned to ignore the mandates of your religion to suit your lives. Islam is not there yet.

I dislike the idea that a woman should feel the need to cover up her face. I'm not really sold on the covering the hair and body either. Much else that is associated with the position of women in Islam sits uncomfortably with me but is not, afaik, exclusive to that religion.

However, I always understood that what feminists were standing up for was the right of women to exercise their own free will (among other things). Whatever Emmeline Pankhurst might have thought about it I think that that means accepting that other women have the right to make choices that I dislike/ disapprove of or just plain don't understand.

PosieParker, "the religion as a whole is frightening"? That sounds uninformed.

I am sick of threads like this, they just give the bigots and ignorant idiots an excuse to vent on something they know nothing about. Islam is the most practiced religion in the world, they can't all be wrong can they? As for the burka, I agree its difficult to interact with women wearing them but obviously the women are aware of this and would not wear them if they wanted to make friends with everyone they meet. Its their choice and its not right to take it away.

Beast what you are talking about is not Islam - it is the interpretation and implementation of that interpretation by some (minor) sections.

Your ignorance astounds me!

Also, re "church in Saudi".

I am guessing that is the only Muslim country you have heard of.

Well, I come from a Muslim country where there are many churches and synagogues. Christian population isn't much but there is a vibrant Jewish population and that is because when you admirable Christians were butchering Jews in Europe, my backward Muslim country opened its doors and welcomed them.

Good post Cote but I do object to the use of 'you christians' it is a bit of a generalisation that all westeners or British or non-muslims are christians!!!

Hyperbole in my post was to highlight the stupidity of beast's generalisation re "Muslims in general".

i seriously seriously hope some woman challenges this in the court of human rights, and the French and Belgian hatemongers get told to stuff their stupid freedom-limiting xenophobia up their own backsides where it belongs.

'liberte, egalite, fraternite'? not whilst you're making laws governing what people can wear in public.

I'm with the French on this one.

"Islam is the most practiced religion in the world, they can't all be wrong can they?"

The old "Let's eat shit, billions of flies can't be wrong" joke? Or were you serious?

"Its their choice and its not right to take it away"

You assume it is always the woman's choice to wear the burqa. You are wrong.

I was watching an interview with some Muslims in France. About the burqa ban, one taxi driver literally said "Well, too bad, now I won't let my wife go out at all"

CoteDAzure, but you are effectively assuming that it is never the woman's choice. Also wrong.

I bet the taxi driver's wife is thrilled about the prospect of the ban. It's really going to make her life better, isn't it???

I have assumed no such thing.

Everyone should show their face in banks, at airport security, on passport photos etc.
Other than that I don't care.

Sure, being imprisoned in her own home is a worse fate than being imprisoned in a black curtain and made invisible. That does not mean that the society should condone the latter.

There is a proposal (not in the UK, iirc) these days for doctors to make just a little cut on the clitoris as symbolic "female circumcision" so that these girls will not then be mutilated in a worse manner by some neighbourhood butcher woman. Would you agree with this? Should the state sponsor little cuts to little girls' genitals? Surely it is the lesser of two evils.

I don't think so.

Cote, this thread is not about female circumcision and I will not go there. Don't confuse the issue.

If you are not assuming that the woman never chooses, you are as a minimum, assuming that it is OK to coerce one group of women in order to prevent anyone else from coercing another. Not in my book.

I don't see why female circumcision shouldn't be mentioned. It, like the burka, is a feature of a culture in which women's bodies are treated as commodities that are owned, hidden and kept pure for the honour and self respect of men.

When women couldn't vote or married women couldn't own property anywhere in the western world was that right because everyone was doing it?

As I said before, people's choices are limited and informed by the culture they live in. This is the case for everyone, but some cultures give women a more appealing set of paremeters than others.

Female circumcision isn't an Islamic thing though. I am confused by the references to it.

Neither, strictly, is a burka. Both are cultural practices that some muslims partake in and justify through religion. As both, I believe, reduce women to a sexuality that has to be controlled it is relevant to discuss them together.

I'm absolutely not pro-burka, but I was offended when I read 'Burka Babes' (a comic that mocks women who wear it). I think that the way to improve these womens lifes is to give them education, give them rights, and then they can choose remove the veil by themselves.

Also, a thought... when was the last time you went to work without any make up on? I've been wearing make up, bra, high heels and a lot of uncomfortable sh*t since I was 13. I consider those my own personal burka.

Just massively skimming this thread, so probably reiterating other posts.

France is not a 'parallel' multicultural society like ours. France welcomes citizens from other countries & cultures, but expects them to integrate into the French way of life. France doesn't adjust its own culture to suit its citizens. Personally, I wish Britain had the same attitude. But it doesn't; I accept the way we are.

My problem with the burkha is that our culture of acceptance means I'd be criticised for expressing my dislike of it! I don't want to talk to anybody with their face covered - it impedes communication. I ask people wearing mirror shades to take them off if they're talking to me. But I wouldn't be allowed to ask a woman to take off her veil, would I?

It's one of those instances of uneven 'tolerance', in my view, sand I'd like it rectified.

My DH is practising muslim, from a muslim country and all his female relatives where the hijab. One SIL wears a niqab (this is more of a cultural hangover as none of the younger generation do). He has always told me that the niqab is not required but a woman can choose to wear one if she wants. However, he doesn't particularly like them. Please don't get this out of perspective most muslim women don't wear the niqab let alone the burkha, it is not a requirement of Islam that they do. Quite a few of the countries where the niqab or burkha are common are also countries with a very traditional mysogynistic patriachal society. It is sometimes difficult to separate the cultural overlay from the underlying religion e.g. girls not being educated is actually a direct contravention of muslim teaching which requires all muslims to learn.
BTW I am an uk born british christian who is remarkably unrepressed by my non-uk muslim husband!

Saw a woman in Tescos wearing one the other day, they are becoming more prevalent.

I can't see that make up is anything like a burkha, for a start noone believes they are superior for wearing it or closer to God.

I am so pleased to be both British and an athiest, noone to be bloody obedient to.

I think it's an admirable part of the British way of life that people are able to dress as they wish, pierce what they want, colour their hair, tattoo every surface.. with the exception of public nudity, anything goes. So I can't see Britain ever following the french example (and they do have a more 'anti-other' society in general)

However, I think women who choose or are pressured to wear masks in public should understand that, culturally, this is not something that will make them easily accepted in British society. The negative associations to do with masks are very long-standing and deep-seated. People who hide their faces behind masks in public are traditionally regarded with suspicion

So feel free to wear whatever you like, but be prepared that it may not get you the reaction you expect.