To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

yanbu!

Slides in Popcorn and flack jackets... for everyone for later...

trust me, you'll be needing them...

under expanses of -black fabric

I don't like women wearing the Burkha, I like the fact that husbands/fathers/brothers will be fined more for making women wear it.

But....I do find the banning it very unsavory surely its a freedom of speech thing. I can understand if it was a ban like the one on motor bike helmets in banks. But it just does seem like a massive restriction on individual freedom, with no real reason behind it, except feeling uncomfortable about people who are different.

I also think it will probably result in the individual women being further restricted and isolated.

I must admit I do find it unsettling to speak to someone without seeing their face, it's like getting texts without any emoticons, how do I know whether someone's joking or not? sarcasm, irony, basic jokes, etc fail on me if I can't see people's expressions

But otoh, it's their choice (assuming it is) and forcing people to wear, or not wear, what you want them to seems a bit of a slippery slope to me.

YANBU. Surely if the (tiny minority) of women that wear them are banned from doing so, they will just stay at home? That's not going to help them integrate. Also it will give the extremists even more ammunition, if you'll excuse the turn of phrase.

if i a truthful i am very worried about how prevelant they have now become. seem to be lots around now. wonder why really..

and yes people can wear what they like but people equally have the right to find them opressive or even frigtening and threatening

YANBU OP
mummytime i think the fining of their family members is very unfair, the vast vast majority of people who wear it here in the uk are not forced. i know a lot of people who wear it, none forced at all. i wore it myself for 2 yrs but i dont anymore (dont think its compulsory, and didnt want to wear anymore so stopped) i did not have any problem from husband or family members taking it off. people have the wrong idea about it on the whole.
and you can see if people are joking and talk with them normally but maybe that is if you are used to seeing and interacting with people wearing it, i do understand for people who are not that familiar with it then may find it awkward. thats not a good enough reason to ban it though. i dont think there are any good reasons to ban it, we are supposed to be a tolerant country in the uk

I don't like the burka. But it's wrong to ban it - it's another form of discrimination and oppression. If someone wants to wear it, they should have the right to do so.

i think they should be banned anywhere there are a security issue, eg customs. i would also not want my children to be taught by a teacher with one on, or to listen to a newsreader or watch an actor in a play - there are some things you need to see facial expressions for - though how you would legislate on this i don't know.

yanbu

Dreaming:

• security issue: pull aside the face covering. The burka is not the only face covering that "disguises" a person. Examples include beards, hats, sunglasses, hair dye, make up and even plastic surgery. No need to ban the burka for security reasons, just need to require it be pulled aside to show the face as and when necessary.

• teacher: presumably your concerns are about the teachers' ability to communicate whilst their face is hidden. I agree this is limited.

• newsreader or actor: no need to legislate - if their ability to communicate is limited, they may struggle to be hired.

By the way, I see this issue as far more serious than just being a waste of time. Its curtailing people's rights, and this is a slippery slope. Sounds extreme, but Aushwitz wasn't built in a day. The Nazis slowly, slowly removed freedoms and imposed restrictions. And Germany wasn't some 3rd world country full of ignorant, uncultured people, either.

'Banning the burkha is hardly going to help them integrate, is it?...'

The burkha is an item of clothing that says to me 'Eff off, don't look at me', not 'Please be my friend'.

To my mind, such clothing has no place in our society. It speaks of a medievalist attitude to women and their bodies that our culture has fought hard to shake off.

I have no issue with saris, shalwar kemees (sp?) etc, but the letterbox eyes thing...

Can ayone tell me why the Burka has become popular in recent years?

I visited Blackburn for the first time in 10 years recently. Last time I lived there I can't remember seeing anyone in the Burkha but this time when I stayed it was common place. What has changed?

1. It is commonly worn, honestly I don't know where the people who say it isn't commonly worn live but in Birmingham and London i've seen plenty out and about.
2. Face covering is something, in our culture, that criminals do (beards, hats sunglasses are not worn with the intent to hide your face and are not often worn all together which would have that effect. People take off their sunglasses inside).

"No place in our society" - presumably you consider the British society to be liberal and enlightened. Which should, therefore, allow people to wear the burka, and any other attire they wish. You may not wear it because you consider it representative of a mediaevalist attitude towards women, which I understand. But to ban it shows an intolerance that was a hallmark of the mediaeval era.

But to be honest women who wear the burka do not have any problem with women seeing their faces or hair. it is men they want to cover from. walk into a woman only wedding or party and your eyes will pop out at how extravagant the outfits and hairstyles are. they compete with each other sure, but not for the attention of men.

by covering their bodies or faces they are opting out of that competitiveness that men would have us do with each other, but the message isn't that they do not want to get to know you, but maybe they wouldn't talk much infront of your DPs or DHs.

I think it's a very difficult and emotive topic but agree that banning it draws battle lines that dont need to be drawn and are likely to be unhelpful.

I think the OP's statement of "if people want to wear it then they will" is probably the crux of the matter. Who is actually encouraging this move back to muslim women completely covering their faces? It is a regressive step in historic terms and could be compared to western women suddenly deciding to start wearing corsets again. Is it the women themselves or is it clerics, husbands and fathers? Very hard to say.

Having lived in Middle Eastern countries where burkas are not commonly worn (headscarf and abaya only- headscarf worn high on the head) there are concerns amongst muslim women that the conservative elements are leveraging anti-western sentiment to encourage a move back to more traditional dress and then anything else will be seen as "unislamic".

Afghanistan is an extreme example, but if you look at photos of Kabul in the 1970's very few muslim women even wore headscarves.

So basically, I dont know. I can see both sides of it.

Gets back on fence.

I've been studying Islamophobia and the other issues it entails at University and after reading possibly hundreds of articles and studies on the matter, I'm thoroughly in favour of saying that YANBU.

Without launching into a huge essay (which would be very easy to do) I fundamentally disagree with removing a person's right to wear an item of clothing unless it directly harms another person. This 'fear' and 'unsettled' feeling surrounding its prevalence is incredibly difficult for me to understand.

To put it into a different context, many people would probably (whether they like to admit it or not) be highly suspicious of/ intimidated by a young male with an unusual hairstyle, covered in tattoos, and lots of piercings. If this 'fear' became extremely commonplace, should it mean we ban these things? No, of course we shouldn't because any reasonable person can realise that the way a person looks is not a representation of their nature. It cannot determine whether they are a good/bad person or whether we can trust them or not. A society's prejudice against the way a person looks should never become legislation, since to judge a person by their outer appearance is clearly discrimination.

I am completely convinced that the problem lies with this ever-increasing fear of Islam that has become shockingly prevalent in the UK, as well as other Western countries. When people start creating ideas in their head that the Burka represents the supposedly extreme differences between 'them' and 'us', then it isn't surprising that there is such ill-feeling about the issue. STOP viewing it as some direct barrier, a challenge to our way of life, or a representation of their subjugation.

Much is made of Islamic women who are frequently represented as downtrodden and completely controlled by the men in their life. Does nobody else find this incredibly patronising? To suggest that the majority of women wearing the Burka have been forced into it by their fathers/ brothers/ husbands is to assume that they have no free will, no self- control, and absolutely no capability to stand up for themselves.

The tabloids simply love a good old story about an arranged marriage or a hideous honour killing because it allows racist individuals to justify their hatred of their 'savage' and 'backwards' ways and further highlights this 'them' and 'us' mentality.

One of the best studies I've ever read was by a man called Arun Kundnani and I'd seriously recommend it to anybody intersted in these issues. He highlighted the fact that in a year-long period a certain tabloid newspaper had mentioned the issue of honour killings hundreds and hundreds of times and was heavily promoting Islam as backwards, intolerant, and dangerous religion to women. This is despite the fact that in the UK, 2 British women are murdered every week by their partner. This had been mentioned once, in a tiny article.

I'm sorry for rambling on but I hope this has been at least a little bit interesting to people, and even if it's made one person change their views ever so slightly then I'll be a very happy woman!

The minute men start clammering to wear burkas, including wearing them to the beach on a boiling hot day, covered head to toe in black, while their wife wears a pair of shorts and t-shirt, then I will be much more tolerant of everyone's right to wear them, and much more supportive of the feeling that we Westerners should just butt out.

Funnily enough, I don't see that happening any time soon, though...

I don't like them, and agree that they should be removed anywhere where, for instance, you wouldn't be able to wear a helmet or sunglasses. I also have to agree that it would hinder ability to perform a large number of jobs.
However, in day to day life it is a blatant infringement of human rights to ban people wearing them. I have a good friend who likes to cover himself in tattoos, stretch his ears and wear a floor length leather cape. He makes some people feel uncomfortable and hinders his chances to get certain jobs, but he still chooses to do it, as it's his right to do so. The same applies to women wearing burkhas surely? X

YANBU - people should be able to wer what they want. Why do we assume that women are made to wear them, what if they just want to?

Agree with 5DollarShake. I'm not sure banning an item of clothing is the best way to find out why some people think a woman should be covered, however. IMO, it is that attitude that needs challenging. So, YANBU.