Support group for those affected by someone else's drinking - thread 3

[pointythings]

Link to previous thread here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/alcoholsupport/5177307-continuing-support-group-for-those-affected-by-someone-elses-drinking?page=40&reply=147449407

Continuing our series of threads for people who have an alcoholic in their lives. This is a safe space to vent, look for advice and support and maybe find some strength.

And we are now stuck with 1000 posts of a thread with a spelling error in the title - I'll chase up HQ to see if they can help.

15% chimes with my RL experience, but it would be good if there were actual research data.

Those stats are terrifying and depressing in equal measure…

We are just hanging on through the tapering. It is so frustrating that he gets to drink because he is dependant/addicted.

He has his second appointment by phone with the recovery service on the 22nd. I want them to see him in person though as I feel that makes it real and he has to face up to being no different to any other addict.

I feel quite angry with him atm and as though I’m half way out the door already. Doesn’t help that he is still lying to his parents - we will spend Xmas with them and it all feels a bit farcical as he pretends to be tea total then drinks his tapering quota once we get home.

Am sick of the lies and covering for him. But then I feel guilty because he is really trying to stop.

Sorry for the emotional brain dump.

That sounds really tough @hoodiemassive. what do they want him to taper down to in order to proceed with a medically managed home detox? My Ex was never able to taper down - rehab four times to go from 30 units daily to zero immediately. He did one home medically managed detox with local services but I think they were happy to proceed immediately even though he hadn’t tapered down. Potentially he lied about his intake and possibly because he had done 4x medically managed withdrawals previously without any seizures.

Loving an addict is so complex and confusing. Mine desperately wanted to be free from addiction but at the same time recovery was so much harder work than feeding the addiction. So I was both sorry for him and angry and resentful at him all at once. I know it’s hard, but don’t cover, I did for at least a year and it really doesn’t make it any better - addiction thrives with secrecy, even though an addict will tell you that the shame of you not covering will make the addiction thrive.

The ‘special’ addict is a big thing huh. My Ex thought he was particularly special/ different somehow. Led him to rage quit one rehab because he didn’t feel they appreciated enough how much of his addiction was trauma and PTSD and mental health. He was also really critical of some younger addicts - what did they have to be addicted for kind of thing, they knew nothing.

@Nogoodusername I’m not sure how much he has to taper down too (don’t think he is either).

His current tapering is 5 cans of oranjeboom strong which is 4.25 units x 5…a colossal amount but less than he was drinking before.

I am frustrated by the slowness to say the least. He is still drinking 21 units per day which is so shit.

We just can’t afford it either - he works a minimum wage job having walked away from a job paying £80k 3 years ago. We lost our house and moved far north to be near his parents. I didn’t realise he was drinking at the time, I thought he was having a breakdown and was so supportive. If I had known it was because of the drink then I would have walked away.

He only stopped lying a few weeks ago when he began to think he had damaged his liver. Amazingly gp did tests and physically he is ok.

The more I type the more angry I feel. I think years of growing up with an alcoholic Dad has taught me some sort of acceptance of this sort of shit.

Ohhhh @hoodiemassive, what a hellish couple of years you have had.

It’s kind of unbelievable what you can lose to addiction. My Ex really did lose everything to drink - his marriage, his business, his kids, his siblings, his home and me. Still not at rock bottom.

I think local services really vary on what they require before a medically managed detox. In one area, Ex was on the list for months without end. When he moved to live with a relative, the new local services were super speedy and he got a detox fast and without tapering. Relapsed after 10 days mind you.

I also had an alcoholic Dad. Managed to break free for my marriage. Managed to go back to an addict for my first serious relationship post divorce. No words for myself really!

The discussion on the stats and 'recovery' rates is really interesting but also quite sad. Like others I don't believe it's anything like 50%, I suspect that's from a highly selective population of people who have engaged with support/services in the first place and then continued to engage throughout a recovery period, as surely a lot of relapses aren't reported anywhere if the person simply stops engaging? My instinct would be the real numbers are much lower, as others have said, particularly in older people who have long-term addiction issues, more co-morbidities and probably less protective factors such as family support, stable employment and housing etc. Not saying it's not hard to kick an addiction at any age but someone in their 50s/60s with lots of associated health issues plus who has lost a lot of the motivation to stop drinking because they've already lost their relationship, family job etc is surely at more risk of relapse?

It depends on what you mean by 'recovery' too, my own dad might be recorded in some NHS database somehow as a success as he managed a really long period of sobriety - he actually 'recovered' to the extent that he was given a liver transplant for his alcoholism induced liver failure, which for obvious reasons they're pretty careful about not doing if they think there's any risk of you drinking again. But sadly pretty soon after getting the transplant he was back on the booze and it killed him in the end (but he then refused to engage with medical care for a long time). It's a real sadness for me that he was capable of quitting the drink but just couldn't/ wouldn't over the long term. I also feel a lot of shame about him getting the transplant, did he 'deserve' it, what would his donor or their family think about the organ going to someone whose disease was to some extent self inflicted and who continued to drink after getting the transplant etc. I know none of this is about me but I guess I just wish there were better ways to predict who has really recovered and who hasn't or what the likelihood of a relapse is, at least it would prevent false hope which is just so sickening?

I helped with a home detox once. Lots of support and assurances. No taper, straight from 2 bottles of wine a day and the vodka we didn’t know about. First 2.5 days were great, then a massive seizure,. Turns out they’d had 3 previously, but lied. They only survived because we were in the GP surgery waiting room at the time. Their child and some other little children saw it happen. It was one of the most traumatic events in my quite eventful life. They went to hospital and were kept in for a medical detox, but discharged themselves after 36 hours, so they could get back on the sauce. Sorry to be a downer, I’ve never really spoken about it before.

@NogoodusernameI don’t really understand why children of alcoholics go on to form relationships with other alcoholics - it’s so sad for us isn’t it? I really believed I was too clued up and therefore it would be impossible to marry one

@Zebracat thanks for sharing - the depths that alcoholics will sink too is astonishing. It helps to hear your experience though because I was starting to doubt why DH couldn’t just stop dead because of the risk of seizures. What a trauma for you.

I supported my husband through tapering more times than I can count. It was interesting because the moment he properly decided to do it something changed in him, and I could see 'my' husband again, and we would work our way through a week or so of tapering down, and hope would return for a while. We would make plans, book things, make elaborate meal plans, buy the ingredients etc.....I might even get him to agree to come out of the house for a short walk with the dogs, then maybe a week or so in he would 'just pop out for some milk' and my heart would sink and the cycle would start again. Just makes me feel cold to think about it.
It is a b**r of a thing alcohol dependency, and I do think that the stats must be much lower than 50% recovery, particularly when the dependency is so ingrained, and the triggers fundementally so lost in the mists of time that there is no logic to it. I drove myself mad with the eggshell walking, and trying so hard to do nothing that might start the drinking again, and then once it had started realising that nothing reasonable I would say could stop it.
Hugs to those of you in the midst of it all.

Back again!!
So today has been easier much less booze. Still ALOT but less than the last few weeks
Went to the AA meeting and I was allowed to stay.
Wow what a group of people so welcoming so diverse.
They spotted it was my husband who's the drinker straight away but we're just welcoming and positive. Quite a few came up at the end to give me their phone numbers to encourage my husband to attend more meetings.
He was dreading it but says he's willing to try the meetings.
There was quite a lot of higher power stuff but my husband is usually a regular church attender before all this shit happened .
So maybe there could be some hope??
Am I kidding myself?
We'll see

I’ve been to a couple of open meetings when dh started aa

yes it’s a lot of god and higher power

but also need to find your /his own higher power

if people bae given their number that’s good and he will need a sponser

al anon will be good for you. I wish I could still go but can’t as have no one to look after dd as in evenings and don’t allow under 18 in al anon

Thankyou penguins! Is it ok to call you that?
I think you must feel I'm very naive and I'm sure you're right but I really have to keep some hope alive .
I'm sorry you can't get to meeting s do you have any support?

Sorry just read that back seems very patronising and ill informed sorry it wasn't meant to sound like that.
I'm really really grateful to you for all your support and advice and kindness .

Not naive at all. I was the same - prob most of us were

i was you 2-4 years ago

we desperately hope they will beat it and not drink

but it’s rare they do Sadly

and the constant blips , relapses and lies etc and one day it will click for you as did for me and others

enough is enough

no one wants their marriage to fail and divorce and kids be without their dad and us to be single parents

which is why prob put up with it for so long 💐

and yes penguins is fine 🐧🐧

@hoodiemassive Am sick of the lies and covering for him. Stop doing it. Decide right now that he can continue to lie if he wants but you won't. If he messes up, let it happen. Don't cover for him and don't protect him from the consequences of his actions. You have nothing to feel guilty about so push those feelings aside as much as you can.

@CharlotteByrde he hides his drinking so well that his parents would need him to come clean about the extent to which he drinks which is alot.

I had another go at getting him to tell them but we have been together so many years I can tell his is half hearted about it.

Should I tell them? Generally his parents like to shove anything with emotions involved under the carpet so I’m really unsure of what their response will be. I did tell his Dad a couple of years ago that he was an alcoholic but DH hid it so well I think he just thought it wasn’t a problem.

The irony is that if he doesn’t quit this time or relapses then he will end up living with them whilst he finds his own accommodation because I just can’t carry on like this.

I am thinking of getting counselling because I’m all of a muddle and having to suppress my anger a lot of the time. I am useless at being angry I think because I wasn’t allowed to feel it as a child so learnt to suppress.

hi all, me again...
Advance warning - this is a long update so please feel free to skip!
It's been a few days since my other posts and god it's been a whirlwind! STBEXH has DRASTICALLY reduced his drinking - 1 full beer (instead of 3) and 0.00 beer in the pub (in front of people, which made him a 'wuss' in his eyes before) and only the 1 bottle of wine (not 2) Sunday to Monday - this past weekend he stuck to it instead of the usual 5 full beers + 3 bottles of wine per night + whatever else he could find (Friday & Saturday when he doesn't have work the next day).
No verbal abuse, no fury, no hateful glaring, no sneering, no nit-picking, even managed to follow a film instead of (literally) losing the plot and then his temper at me for putting such 'confusing' shit on the tv to watch... in other words, a turnaround of unimaginable proportions😮 We even talked through what will happen next and how we could try to carry on some sort of friendship after the actual split...I explained that living with him has felt like a noose around my neck - the constant anxiety that he would kick off leeched all the joy out of my life, made it so hard to just breathe and he said he understood. Even stated 'I know I was the perpetrator of domestic abuse towards you'
I've also had the begging/pleading 'one more chance', the heart wrenching sobbing and TBF, he looks terrible, broken.
I feel such enormous guilt for the suffering I am putting him through...this isn't some kind of satisfying 'revenge' for my past hurt at his hands, it's not remotely a victory for me, it's just so, so sad.
I am torn between my instinct which tells me not to comfort him (I don't trust him, he's always used my empathy to manipulate me before) and his earnest request that I 'allow me (him) to love you and be with you as much as possible until you leave me (him) forever', he says he needs to be in my company to hold off some of the crushing grief he feels that he's losing me.
He cries every evening before I go to bed (we've slept in separate rooms for months already) and every morning when I wake up - and his anguish is like a knife in my heart. I have loved this man so very much for over 12 years and to know I'm doing this to him is diminishing/crushing me, making me feel as callous and heartless as he has been to me in our past. I have never been intentionally cruel to anyone and even though cruelty is not my motive here at all, seeing him like this is so devastating and makes me feel like a 'bad person'.
My resolve is strong (no hesitation that I am doing the right thing and I will go through with it), I have the 'ick' if he comes to me for a hand hold or imposes a hug as he sobs. I AM DONE, but it's going to be months of this until the house sells and I'm already exhausted... how has anyone else coped please? Any tips as to how I can find a way to live every day like this for week after week indefinitely? My heart aches and my head's mashed - come to think of it, they have been our entire relationship - but it feels worse somehow now.
Thank you if you got this far, just being able to tell people who may understand helps so much xx

That all sounds dreadful. I can't begin to imagine what this hell would be like if children were also part of the scenario.
I can't imagine how you cope.
What would his parents knowing about his problems make a difference? Is it preparing for him to live with them?

Oh this is so hard.

I am glad you realise that leaving is still the best thing to do. Even if this is the start of actual recovery, he still shouldn't be in a relationship when his focus should be on addressing his addiction. You are both allowed to grieve, but none of that wipes out anything he did.

And then there's the ick, which is often irreversible. Keep strong.

@pointythings , thank you🙏, I really do appreciate your support, it is shit to live like this🥹
I'm going to need a sit down with my besties for a good talking to - I still want to believe his remorse is genuine - years of conditioning from him (and myself too) that he's a good guy really, he just makes mistakes (often) and genuinely cares for me....and then my knowledge of his other (real?) self means I feel manipulated by his performative? grief and he's just as self-serving as ever - doesn't want me to leave because he needs me to stay and carry on adoring him and my feelings and boundaries don't matter. It also makes me furious that he can reduce his drinking apparently so easily but never ever tried to reduce by just one for all of these years.
Plus, he's told his son and some mutual friends " she's leaving me", says he's been honest and told them it's all his fault...but then relishes that they all comforted him and sympathised with his heartbreak - none of them have reached out to me so he's once again the hero in the pantomime of our relationship and me the bloody villain!
God, I have GOT to get away from this man - I can't distinguish between truth and lies anymore😬

@wouldratgerbeunknown that’s a good question to which there are a few answers…I want him to stop being able to hide behind his lies and being able to pretend he is someone he’s not (sober). He also feels that it would devastate his parents but the angry me just thinks, well you have crushed me so why should his parents not feel it too…not very proud of that but there it is.

We have 3 kids stuck in this mess but I am not prepared to watch their childhoods slip by or my own life. I keep thinking that I wish I hadn’t married him but I was in love and without the drink he is the nicest man I’ve ever known.

I know he’ll move out if I ask and live close by so he can still support me and the kids. We have been together for 21 years and for the most part, have been happy.

But I’m not happy now. Got counselling lined up tomorrow, hoping to sort out my muddled thoughts.

@zeroclucksgiven This is exactly the behaviour that I have been dealing with. Having the tears and begging, wanting a hug etc. In my opinion, the tears were for himself at not having someone to be their emotional support victim.

While they are drinking, all they care about is them. The abusive will start as the drinking increases, when he realises the emotional manipulation isn't working.

My advice to you, is that when this happens call the police. Have him removed from the house for your emotional and physical safety. He has little to lose when he knows its over. The drinking and abuse will escalate and it will be your fault for leaving him in his fucked up mind.

You are not hurting him, and he is feeding your hope to try and keep you. But he is still the same abusive alcoholic, and he will try to suck you back in.

@ByeByeDrinker thank you for taking the time to post… and for the wisdom within.
You are exactly right… the tears and begging and brokenness are all just different guises for the emotional manipulation he has always shown.
Will grit my teeth and march onward towards my freedom!
I am not scared he will hurt me physically, at least I wasn’t until you pointed out he has nothing to lose and will think I deserve it …… shit!

@zeroclucksgiven hopefully he won't resort to that. But even if the verbal abuse happens, you can call the police. You dont have to put up with the psychological abuse from him.

I'm a few weeks into saying enough is enough. I had a visit a few days ago, but refused to open the door. But the emotional manipulation was very intense, trying to get me to support him. With no recognition of the impact on me, and how the abusive behaviour when drinking upsets me.

It's hard to stay strong, and know that they are suffering. But they are not able to care about the impact on us.