Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

That’s a shame, where do you live? Rurally? We had a ton round here.

How can one place be the only one to have no culture. But everywhere else does.

Why do you think that’s happened?

The history of the English? There were plenty of Scottish slave traders and owners. It was called the British Empire, not the English Empire. Besides, many other nations were also involved in colonialism and slavery. These days, most people seem to enjoy blaming the English for the whole lot of it.

Sorry, that's such a c**nty thing to say. Yuck.

That was the history of the entire world. Every nation in the past warred with others and conquered.

Really cowardly when you think about it. I would rather acknowledge the past than try to hide and blame others for it.

There's a lot of false over complication that people like to do in this discussion. Yes, English is an ethnicity and a culture. It's not really a formal nationality. Neither is Scottish or Welsh.

Indian, Chinese, French and Italian are ethnicities and cultures, but they are also more coherently nationalities. Consider for example, someone who was born in Hong Kong to English parents. Now, that person may well have Chinese nationality but she is not ethnically Chinese and if she described herself as Cantonese people would think that was a bit silly.

I am half-English. On one side, my family have been from England for as long as anyone can remember. On the other, although I and my mother were born here, my grandparents came from somewhere else. I therefore don't consider that side English. Similarly, if our English women in Hong Kong married a Cantonese man, their children would be half Cantonese.

As you get further down the generations, people can get more or less of whatever ethnic and cultural group depending on where they live, how they live and who they marry.

To me, denying the existence of Englishness as an ethnicity would be the same as saying that there are only black people and no one is allowed to say they are Yoruba Nigerian or Zulu. I think it's all part of a self-flagellating culture war narrative that basically says English people are evil, somehow more than all the other people who had empires or participated in slavery (both of which are actually the norm in human societies rather than the exception).

No, I live in a northern town. My point is that someone who lives rurally will have a very different definition of ‘English culture’ to urban dwellers. That’s not to say that the things listed aren’t English culture, but not every (flat) cap fits all.

If let's say Emma and John packed up and moved to Tokyo Japan to have children there. Would the kids be Japanese? Or people of English descent living in Japan?

As for saying the English don't have a culture, that's just like saying you don't have an accent. You can't see you're in it in the same way a fish doesn't know it's swimming in the sea.

But again, what gives you the right to decide that?

Sunak has explicitly said that he considers himself to be British Indian and English.

You don't have to identify in the same way at all, but if that's how he defines himself, then I think people should respect his personal view.

There is no legal or scientific definition of English identity, so ultimately it just comes down to a matter of perception. And in terms of someone's identity, I think their own perception is the one that counts.

I don’t disagree but the issue is that your viewpoint isn’t applied fairly.

Other places (Gaza springs to mind) are considered to have an ‘ethnic people’ who are more deserving of ‘their land’ because they’ve been there ‘longer’ (subject of historical debate but you get the gist).

Yet that logic isn’t applied to Western (white) countries. Surely the definition has to be uniform?

I don’t see these things as uniquely English. The English don’t have legal right to the ownership of fish and chips and pies (I’m sure most Scots would challenge you on that one and I’ve eaten lots of duck pie in rural France). Most countries are a mixture of many different things. Ok some things originate from certain areas, e.g everyone knows that tartan and kilts are deeply rooted in Scottish culture but “English” people buy and wear it as do many other countries. That fine with me and I’m sure most Scots are fine with it too.
Does it matter if we share “cultures” or not. What is problem? Kilts fish and chips and Parmesan cheese don’t make you a better or worse person. I

No, other people's perception also counts. I could move to Lagos and call myself Yoruba, but if other people think it's ridiculous it doesn't really count for much.

So you don’t think anywhere in the world has a culture as other places could in theory copy them?

You don’t think a Keffiyeh is Palestinian because so many Westerners wear one now?

For me it's largely a linguistic thing, I think. If you want to call yourself English and speak with a native English accent, then fine by me. I know quite a few people from immigrant backgrounds, often not even born in the UK, but you wouldn't know unless you asked them or asked them their name, because they've been here since childhood.

To be fair I also know people with English parents who've grown up abroad and don't sound English, but I'd still consider them English. (They may have lived in e.g. America but they're not culturally American really.)

Does anywhere have a culture? Do you think there’s French culture, Italian or Japanese. Or is it all pretty much the same?

As someone who is ethnically Indian. Vast swathes of the Indian public didn't view Sonia as a "true Indian" and there's a reason she didn't become PM

Quite the reverse it is not a c**nty thing to say but you qualifying that it is with 'yuck' most definitely is.

I feel the English have been welcoming to immigrants. It is like having a child that you have tried to make happy. You give them freedom, resources, opportunities and love only for them to go no contact out of the blue and call you abusive parents.

The English are widely recognized as a distinct ethnic group and nation native to England.

It’s a hard one. I have centuries long English heritage according to ancestry websites. Both my parents were English (ie both born and raised in England of English parents), but they were unmarried and living overseas when I was born so I was not conferred with their nationality as a result of Uk laws surrounding nationality.

In fact, as we returned to the UK when I was a baby, I only discovered I was not a national - and was in fact an illegal immigrant - when I was 22, left university and applied for a passport. Issues of battling deportation risk to a country I had never stepped foot in aside, and the 6 year journey to naturalisation - when I was finally naturalised I became ‘British’ - not English, because there is no box on the forms, no legal recognition in nationality terms of ‘English’ [or Scottish, or Welsh]. They do not exist as legal nationalities. Englishness (and Scottishness etc) is a notional concept which informs a person’s sense of identity but is not actually a ‘real’ classification.

I DO consider myself ‘English’ - in ancestry, life-long occupancy, culturally - but in legal reality I am ‘British of English ancestry’. The problem is that if I define myself that way - and I should have the right to do so, as my half-sisters are entitled to describe themselves as ‘British of Asian/Mixed descent’ - I would be deemed to be a racist fascist by others.

So yeah, it’s a tough one.

I was born in London of Spanish French British ancestors, look Mediterranean, I was raised in a very multicultural society, I live in Scotland speak with a very English accent but have picked up a few Scottish colloquialisms, eat fish and chips, spaghetti, love a curry/nibbling Parmesan cheese, eat bread and olive oil for breakfast and like rice. I have a tartan skirt (purchased before moving to Scotland) I just loved the pattern and tick British on a questionnaire.
I would like to hope that being British (I’m not going to say I’m English because I don’t believe it exists) is about being tolerant and open minded and prepared to embrace all cultures not pigeon holing myself into a certain way of behaving and as appears to be the increasingly accepted norm and assuming this means you are superior to everyone else.

How can 'English not exist' but Scottish does?

Not culturally? What do you mean? Because being born and living their whole lives in the culture of said country would mean they were, surely?

It will indeed be sad if we lose Morris dancing only for it to be replaced with Morrison dancing. Waving pork pies around?