Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

I don’t think it’s a simple question.
I’m not English, I was born in Wales and have Welsh ancestry so I consider myself pretty much 100% Welsh - so also that means I’m British. But if I did an ancestry DNA test it would be different to an English person.
My husband has lived in wales longer than he lived in England, but he’s still English. I don’t think you can move to a country and claim that as your identity, official nationality yes but unless you’re born somewhere you can’t claim it - that goes for any country in the world. I will always be Welsh no matter where else in the world I might decide to go and live.

I also feel like people I know who are not of British ancestry but have been born in the UK are totally English/Welsh too.
But it would be wrong to say there is no difference because they themselves would say “I’m English but my Mum was born in XX” for example.
I think nationality, national identity and genetics are just different things and it’s fine to say, for example, that you’re a British national, are Welsh and from Chinese ancestry (as one of my friends is) - she totally is Welsh and I consider her to be so but it’s obvious to anyone that she is genetically not and I don’t think that’s racist it’s just the truth.

No

Michael McGrory from west Donegal
You came to Glasgow with nothing at all
You fought the landlord then the Africa Korps
When you came to Glasgow with nothing at all

Abraham Caplan from Vilnius you came
You were heading for New York but Leith's where you've stayed
You built a great business that benefits all
Since you came to this land with nothing at all

In Scotland's story I read that they came
The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane
But so did the Irishman, Jew and Ukraine
They're all Scotland's Story and they're all worth the same

Joseph D'Angelo dreams of the days
When Italian kids in the Grass market played
Burned out his shop when the boys went to war
But Auld Joe's a big man and he forgave all

In Scotland's story I'm told that they came
The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane
But where's all the Chinese and Indian names?
They're in my lands story and they're all worth the same

Christina McKay, I learned of your name
How you traveled south from Delny one day
You raised a whole family in one room they say
And the X on the line stands in place of your name

So in the old story I'll bet that I came
From Gael and Pict and Angle and Dane
And a poor migrant girl who could not write her name
It's a common old story but it's mine just the same

All through the story the immigrants came
The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane
From Pakistan, England and from the Ukraine
We're all Scotland's story and we're all worth the same
Your Scotland's story is worth just the same

These are the lyrics of the song @godmum56 posted.

So you don’t think of King Charles as really English then?

Being whatever nationality you are is an accident of birth. It’s ok to be proud of the country you were born in. It’s also ok to be proud of the country you moved to.

But, we’re all the same essentially.

So we should remember that.

Well legally if you are of Cornish descent that doesn't make you English but it does make you British in the same way that if you are of Welsh descent does not make you English but British:

On April 24, 2014, the UK government officially recognised the Cornish people as a national minority under the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=www.cornwall.gov.uk/people-and-communities/equality-and-diversity/cornish-national-minority/&ved=2ahUKEwjA0YzSiK2XAxW-Q_EDHQYLLlkQy_kOegoIAggACAAIChAD&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw1fOu5XbJ8Kd8HQBTTUCgWK&ust=1791639837903000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (FCNM).

Although Cornwall is legally an administrative part of England, the Cornish identity is recognised as separate from an English identity.

This recognition places the Cornish on an equivalent footing with the UK's other Celtic groups—the Scots, Welsh, and Irish—acknowledging their distinct history, culture, identity, and language.

Of course I think he's English

No I don’t think it does. Im not sure even in micro areas there are uniform culture.i think much of the way we think behave our attitudes our interests etc are a reflection of how we were brought up.
Born in London I had MC liberal lefty parents who instilled those values in me, my friends came from many different background and nationalities they had different values. My mother in particular was exceedingly cultured art classical music reading going to the theatre etc played a big part of my up bringing sport was never got a look in now as an adult I am at best underwhelmed by sport but love art classical music etc.
But I was also thanks to my grand parents was brought up on a farm in a micro village that was very remote where caring for your neighbours and being part of a small community greeting and where possible passing the time of day with anyone you met was the norm and important it goes without saying so I have those values instilled in me. I’ve been on farms since I can remember I also I don’t have an overly sentimental view on animals and that’s come from my early experiences.
Im very sceptical the there is a unique English culture and that everyone born in England and claims to be English has it.

I couldn’t care less if King Charles was English British or even a Martian is he doing a good job is he a decent person? But that’s another separate and controversial thread I suspect.

Try saying that to Spaniards, French, Italians, Welsh, Irish or Scots and see how it goes down. Although all those countries were invaded at some point.

Scots Protestants were sent by Oliver Cromwell to colonise Catholic Ireland, burn the peasants out of their homes and oppress them. "Beyond the pale" refers to the areas that Irish peasants were sent to by the invading Scots who had burned their cottages. But of course you will never hear about this from the SNP who are "victims" of the English.

My parents were both immigrants from different countries - I was born and raised in England. I refer to myself as British of mixed race/heritage (if there’s a box ticking exercise to be had). My heritage is not English at all but I still consider it my motherland. I strongly identify with my mums South Asian culture because that was how we grew up.

My husband is Scottish, both by heritage and by birth and calls himself Scottish.

We also immigrated and our children both have British passports but have dual nationality (we all do). They would refer to themselves as mixed race Scottish probably, or whatever they consider coolest.

I was born in England
My father was German, my grandfather Russian, my grandmother half Irish.
I do not regard myself as English; I am European with a British Passport.

My DH was born in England
His father's side tracks back to 1200; his mother is 1/4 French and 1/4 Welsh.
He regards himself as a British Francophile.

I was born in England but am not English and don’t mind one bit. My father was British but I’m happy to be what I am which is British and of another ethnicity- if I was English that would cancel all my amazing heritage - I love England and embrace every aspect of English culture - my husband is English - but of all the things I’ve got on my mind this is not one of them - honestly it’s bonkers to give this the attention it’s getting - only Cruella Braverman wants to get us all on the bandwagon -

I think the acid test comes if we were at war. Who will serve this country, and who will suddenly scuttle off to their / their parents country of birth? By serve, I don't necessarily mean die for this country as in war there are many ways to serve the country that don't involve dying or killing.

Problem is this means immigrants and their British born descendants can’t win.

If they identify as their ancestral
country, they are accused of not integrating.

If they identify as English for example, they are accused of stealing identity from the English.

It’s a zero sum game for immigrants.

And yet Brits, US Americans, Canadians, Australians etc are celebrated for acknowledgment each part of their culture (e.g. 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 English, 1/4 Viking, 1/4 Russian etc).

It doesn’t even have to come to war.

Look at how ‘patriot’ Tommy Robinson has scuttled off to Spain.

And what about the Brits who have left the UK, is their loyalty being tested too?

If you're white you can identify with whatever you want and no one bats an eyelid. If you're non white on the other hand you will always be questioned....

It is an interesting question , which often leads to a lot of heated debates , but I think if approached with genuine curiosity and open mindedness can be helpful to think about.

I was born in England and have a English accent. I am white, and my family , as far as I am aware , have lived in England for centuries. That said , I have absolutely no connection with Englishness, and frankly , I don't know what it even is meant to be.

I think unless we get a consensus on what Englishness means , the whole argument is relatively pointless. The right wing nationalists would have you believe that to be English means you have to be white. If one solely uses ethnicity and race as a barometer for Englishness, then that is an interesting argument to have.

However, many people in the UK see being born in England is making you just as English as someone who's family has been here for centuries, regardless of skin colour or tone.

I have heard arguments that if a white English couple immigrated had child born in China, that child would not be Chinese. I am unsure how offensive that would be for the English couple.

If we trace our ancestry back , we are all from Africa or thereabouts. It is also ironic that right-wing nationalists, complaining about their culture being taken over, seem to have a blindspot regarding colonialism throughout history. The chickens has come home to roost, and it is hardly surprising that non white people will claim to be English, if England historically colonised their countries.

Personally , I think the whole conversation whilst interesting , is pointless , because we will never get agreement as to what being English actually means. The whole thing is a man-made construct regardless. Humans drew borders and categorised other humans based on what they look like. There is no inherent "English" just as there isnt an inherent "Chinese".

TLDR: interesting interesting topic. However , unlikely to be resolved as everyone has their own unique understanding of ethnicity and nationality , much of which contradicts other people. Nationalists will always use race or ethnicity when it comes to these conversations. Which is ironic as they often don't like race to be mentioned in any other context.

I can't believe some people are saying that Rishi Sunak isn't English. He was born and raised in England and has lived his whole life here! Of course he's English! But he has Indian heritage.

Is that true though? If I moved to China or Japan , I very much doubt I would be classed as Japanese or Chinese, being white English.

Not trying to pick fault in your argument , just raising a point that it is simply untrue that white people would not get questioned on this. Just because one lives in a primarily white country does not mean that this would universally apply across nations.

If you were born and raised in England, have mostly lived here and love and embrace all aspects of English culture, then you're English with heritage from X country. (And you're also British.) Being English doesn't erase other heritage. One is your heritage, one is your nationality.

Everyone knows what Englishness is. It's marketed over the whole world with series like Midsummer Murders and Agatha Christie. But liberal lefties pretend that it doesn't exist.

I lived in Spain for a while in the nineties. Does that make me Spanish? No.

Exactly