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Who is English?

539 replies

mids2019 · 09/10/2026 07:02

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

OP posts:
Jtra · 09/10/2026 10:54

JaneJaneAnne · 09/10/2026 10:52

People of different nationalities or ethnicities aren't different species.

You yourself said a different ethnicity

JaneJaneAnne · 09/10/2026 10:55

Spicysenorita · 09/10/2026 10:54

Its an example

Yes, I was pointing out that I think it’s a poor example and unhelpful (to say the least).

JaneJaneAnne · 09/10/2026 10:57

Jtra · 09/10/2026 10:54

You yourself said a different ethnicity

I’m not clear on your point?

sausagesandtomatoes · 09/10/2026 10:59

It’s an interesting question. I’ve spent a lot of time in the US and when chatting, I’ve had a couple of Americans tell me they were ‘English’. When I asked where from, it transpired they meant their ancestry was English.

At home, if someone tells me they are English, I assume that means they were either born here or they’ve adopted England as their home country. I don’t think it’s anything to do with genetics - yes, my DNA profile will show up British ancestry but actually my friend who was born here to Indian parents refers to herself as English and so she’s just as much English as I am.

For me it’s about your birthplace or where you consider to be ‘home’.

I imagine some of this debate is being triggered by people who believe you can only be English if you’re white and your DNA/ancestry is rooted here. 🙄

Jtra · 09/10/2026 11:01

JaneJaneAnne · 09/10/2026 10:57

I’m not clear on your point?

Someone of a non English ethnicity isn't by definition English

Aydel · 09/10/2026 11:02

TruffleSlinky · 09/10/2026 07:33

I'm a third generation immigrant (my grandparents emigrated here). I think of myself as completely British. And, as I am white and have an English accent, it wouldn't occur to anyone else that I'm not. My non-UK "cultural heritage" isn't important to me at all - it feels distant and unconnected to me. That's me though - of course it will be different for others.

It’s different for me. My ancestors on my mother’s side are Hungarian and German Jews. I grew up hearing Hungarian, German and Yiddish spoken by extended family, eating Central European food as much as English food. I speak fluent German and my Yiddish isn’t too bad. My cousins are divided on the subject - half feel like me, and the rest would very much describe themselves as white, English, and worship at the temple of Farage.

NosnowontheScottishhills · 09/10/2026 11:03

1dayatatime · 09/10/2026 10:47

Does it matter if we share culture - absolutely it does. And it is important to make a clear distinction between multiracial and multi culture.

Mary Seacole was of Scottish Jamaican heritage but was thoroughly British in culture shown through her actions as was Walter Tull. Both are simply examples of the legacy of British history and both were very much British.

Whereas multiculturalism which creates separate, competing systems of norms, values, and behaviors to replace a unified national identity. This in turn creates causes societal fragmentation, parallel communities and declining social trust.

Diversity of race should be an irrelevance, whereas diversity of culture is not a strength but a weakness.

is is naive to hope that if we share and if we wish too adopt cultures from around the world and this inevitably means our own culture of fish and chips pies and Morris dancing etc becomes diluted (because so far this is is how English culture has been defined) then we’ll become more tolerant and we’ll have a lightbulb moment: “gosh these people from Africa India the Middle East are basically just like us. Despite our surface differences they too have hopes and dreams have for themselves and their families that are pretty similar to mine”. Then maybe we might start caring about what happens to them.
When the Syrians were fleeing war and persecution one said “what is wrong with wanting a better life for my family?”

Namemechangey · 09/10/2026 11:13

It's an interesting topic actually, I have been doing my family tree, I have strong Cornish roots going back as far as records go, Cornwall wasn't part of England until something like 800AD, but it's likely that they were in Cornwall for thousands of years from my research - are they English? They certainly wouldn't have called themselves English.

I also have roots that go back to the Norman conquest in 1066, one of my ancestors is a Baron who came over from France. I also have strong Welsh and some Irish, French, and Italian DNA. My ancestors from these places would not have called themselves English.
I have one ancestor who was bought over 250 years ago from the US as a boy slave, he was black, no-one in my family looks remotely black, or even knew we had a black ancestor, he seems to be the only black ancestor in my tree. Was he English when he came? African, or American? Did he even know where he was from originally?
So am I English? I don't really know TBH? I have a much longer heritage of my family being in this land than many people that are here now, but how much more English I am than the next person I do not know. But in my mind Englishness is a culture rather than an ethnicity, as most English people are of mixed ancestry.

I doubt there are many people that can trace back to only English roots, the Royal family doesn't even have pure English heritage.
What about when we go back to the Roman and then the Viking invasions?

There isn't a rule book that says, you must have at least five generations on maternal and paternal side to be English for example.

ExtraHotDoubleShot · 09/10/2026 11:14

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/10/2026 10:47

I haven't said anything about the Palestinians being the "true ethnic people"? I don't even know what that means?

It’s quite simple, a lot of people use the ‘they were there first’ argument (even though they weren’t) to justify the land being ‘theirs’, do you agree that being ‘native’ should entitle you to land more than others? In the case of Palestinians, Aboriginals, Native Americans etc? They should get ‘their’ land back?

it’s not a trick question

Differentforgirls · 09/10/2026 11:16

BoaAlba · 09/10/2026 09:13

To me, it’s about accent.

Accent is integral to identifying with a specific community or group. I identify Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh people by their accent rather than their geographical location or appearance, regardless of their ethnicity/heritage.

How does anyone identify Americans, French people or Kiwis but by their accents?

Yes same. I had a black delivery driver today with a Scottish accent so, to me, he's Scottish. Same with the likes of Humza Yousaf and Anas Sarwar. Scottish.

EscCtrl · 09/10/2026 11:17

Culturally I'm probably old-school English. I drink tea, listen to The Archers, support the English football team, like fish and chips, a Sunday roast, and curry. I never complain in restaurants (just never go back). I am acutely aware of social class, and the nuances of our high context culture. I respect a queue, though these days it's remembering my place at the bus stop. I think manners are important. I try to be polite, yet I delight in Malcolm Tucker's expletive laden tirades. In the true English style I never insult anyone, inadvertently. I love the humour that undercuts everything, the tendency towards irony, litotes, satire, the beauty of the language, the monumental breadth and depth of the OED, the eccentricity, the creativity, the taste.

My parents were not English (economic migrants) so, despite having been born into and lived my life inside this wonderful culture, I'm still a little bit of an outsider who is lucky (for the most part) to experience the temperate English values of tolerance, restraint, and fair play.

It's a national trait to complain, to criticize the government, to talk the country down, to be so self-deprecating. There is much that could be better, but there is so much to be positive about. To achieve the MEGA (Make England Great Again) there's no need to put anyone else down. Economics and culture are not zero sum games.

BerryTwister · 09/10/2026 11:18

AirportParking · 09/10/2026 08:39

Offensive to who?

I'm saying it as a person of mixed ethnicity, that is judged by their skin tone and has assumptions about their identity made based upon this.

My skin tone is not white enough to be considered English.

@AirportParking I’ll ask again, what do you mean by “milky white”? I’m glad to see your post containing that phrase has been deleted.

Teawithfrenchtoast · 09/10/2026 11:20

I’m not sure what Reform would class me as - my grandparents were born and bread in Scotland, my parents were both born in England but moved to Scotland as young adults. I was born in Scotland but then we moved to England when I was 4, then back to Scotland when I was 23. Am I Scottish, English or British by reform’s definition?

Jtra · 09/10/2026 11:20

Humza Yousaf is of Pakistani heritage

MrsPapillon · 09/10/2026 11:22

Jtra · 09/10/2026 11:01

Someone of a non English ethnicity isn't by definition English

How much? Is there a percentage of English ethnicity you need to have to be called English?

ExtraHotDoubleShot · 09/10/2026 11:22

Jtra · 09/10/2026 11:20

Humza Yousaf is of Pakistani heritage

Isn’t he the First Minister of Gaza? I saw his social media the other day and it appears that way.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2026 11:23

Differentforgirls · 09/10/2026 11:16

Yes same. I had a black delivery driver today with a Scottish accent so, to me, he's Scottish. Same with the likes of Humza Yousaf and Anas Sarwar. Scottish.

Accent is probably a closer indicator. Although it can be quite settled as a childhood accent and in adulthood there’s an affinity to the country you’re living in.

Ik plenty of people who have their childhood accent but feel a lot like the country they’re in. One thing that does seem to switch is who you back in sport eg Olympics or football.

dustabsorber · 09/10/2026 11:27

Was Spike Milligan Indian? He was born in India. Is Michael Portillo English or Spanish or a bit of both?

WhoGives2Fucks · 09/10/2026 11:28

BunnyLake · 09/10/2026 09:57

That’s not a uniquely English thing though. White people born and raised in Japan, Korea, China have faced the same challenges.

Very good point! No one will acknowledge this as it doesn’t quite align with the concept that it’s only unique to England to have a strict view of what they consider English. Reality is that it’s happens all over the world regardless of skin colour or nationality.

WhoGives2Fucks · 09/10/2026 11:28

BunnyLake · 09/10/2026 09:57

That’s not a uniquely English thing though. White people born and raised in Japan, Korea, China have faced the same challenges.

Don’t know why it posted twice

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/10/2026 11:29

ExtraHotDoubleShot · 09/10/2026 11:14

It’s quite simple, a lot of people use the ‘they were there first’ argument (even though they weren’t) to justify the land being ‘theirs’, do you agree that being ‘native’ should entitle you to land more than others? In the case of Palestinians, Aboriginals, Native Americans etc? They should get ‘their’ land back?

it’s not a trick question

No, I certainly don't think that simply being born in a place automatically entitles you to own a piece of land in that place. Why would it?

I do think that it's important where there are disputes to look at the historic ownership of land and how that may have passed from one group of people to another, whether violence or coercion or power imbalances were involved etc.

There is a massive difference between someone purchasing land in a legal manner and someone taking it by force. And then there are various nuances in between.

I'm still not really sure what you're getting at?

JaneJaneAnne · 09/10/2026 11:31

Jtra · 09/10/2026 11:01

Someone of a non English ethnicity isn't by definition English

So King Charles isn’t English?

Or only half English as his Dad was Greek?

dustabsorber · 09/10/2026 11:32

Norman Tebbits cricket test : It proposed that the level of assimilation and loyalty of South Asian and Caribbean immigrants (and their children) in the UK could be measured by which cricket team they supported when playing against England.

ExtraHotDoubleShot · 09/10/2026 11:33

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 09/10/2026 11:29

No, I certainly don't think that simply being born in a place automatically entitles you to own a piece of land in that place. Why would it?

I do think that it's important where there are disputes to look at the historic ownership of land and how that may have passed from one group of people to another, whether violence or coercion or power imbalances were involved etc.

There is a massive difference between someone purchasing land in a legal manner and someone taking it by force. And then there are various nuances in between.

I'm still not really sure what you're getting at?

Power imbalances and violence were concerned in the establishment of virtually every country worldwide, and the majority of land disputes now. It would also ‘confirm’ Russia as the valid owner of Ukraine. Many territories in Africa are under dispute by warring tribes. So what happens when you establish land was taken by violence or power imbalance? Does it get returned to the original party?

What I’m getting at I suppose is on the left the idea that Western countries can have ‘ethnic populations’ who own the land is seen as far right, whereas in the case of Gaza and Aboriginals etc it’s seen as fair and just.

EasternStandard · 09/10/2026 11:36

dustabsorber · 09/10/2026 11:32

Norman Tebbits cricket test : It proposed that the level of assimilation and loyalty of South Asian and Caribbean immigrants (and their children) in the UK could be measured by which cricket team they supported when playing against England.

Sports teams can work. Knowing many people who live in various places the accent might not even do it but who you want to win can change over time.