The minefield of secondary school

[Chapternew]

I had a reasonable idea of the schools I wanted to visit, until a thread opened my eyes to behaviour policies and the extent they can dictate life out of school. A school can deny a child the right to carry any phone at all after school for example, which a) I didn’t know they could do, and b) just wouldn’t work for our family. Granted, this is an extreme example and maybe I’ve been living under a rock to assume behaviour policies were much of a muchness, school-based, and it’s how a school genuinely responds on the ground that matters.

In my area, school visits are starting right now. I’d rather know of any dealbreakers in advance, so spent an exciting evening checking each school’s behaviour policy. What a rabbit hole! There are detailed lists of contraband, categories of offences, internal exclusions, reset rooms, red cards, categories of detentions, pyramids, tables of allowed offences frequencies. Schools use various phrases for isolation rooms, “re-education” kept popping into my head! Secondary is a minefield.

Is behaviour so much worse now or have I been hoodwinked by news or social media? If there are clear consequences, why is behaviour so bad? The policies I viewed listed consequences ranging from the most trivial matters such as having a fake set of eyelashes in a locker, up to extremely serious matters.

Obviously I understand that a policy on vandalism for example, doesn’t mean vandalism might not ever occur, but if it’s acted upon, it sets a path leading up to exclusion. What am I missing and please forgive my naivety. I am trying to understand.

A small minority behave terribly, which can have a severe knock on effect for all tge others if there isnt strict policies in place.

The phone thing is relating to a Governmebt pokicy about phones being unavailable during the school day. Plenty of schools are still using the "Off and out of sight" method. But if uts seen, a parent needs to collect it. Many are using some method of securing the phones during the day. A few are banning them completely (which I agree, is a atep to far unless dumb phones are excluded)

I don't or rather didn't find it a minefield especially. Schools have to have policies that cover a range of eventualities. Those things may never come to pass – or if the do, they may never affect your DC.

Behaviour can be challenging in schools, yes. That is, there can be poor behaviour. I taught in secondary for several years and it was an issue sometimes. Schools have isolation rooms or similar where YP are sent when they do not follow the rules. Despite what you may read in some sections of the media, no one is sent to isolation all day just for having the wrong colour hairband.

If your DC behaves well and follows the rules, most of the things you mention will not impact them. And it's a good thing IMHO if DC who persistently disrupt the class are taken out of it. Yes, there should be attention paid to why and how they can be supported. And meanwhile the rest of the class can learn.

Re the phone thing – I know of people whose DC at secondary have to put their phone in an unlockable pouch when they walk in, which they then release as they leave - as YP may well need a phone for bus ticket or to call home once out of school. This seems to me a good solution to managing the ban on phones. I don;t see how a school can police whether a YP is carrying a phone after school?

I think if you speak to any mainstream teacher, they would probably answer yes, behaviour abd aggression /verbal abuse has risen a lot in recent years.

Yes, it’s the minority, many schools not setup or inclusive of SEN (or simply not funded for support required), but it is challenging.

This said, as a parent, it’s easy to see why so many children combust in school, they forget a pen, wear their tie the wrong way, are a minute late, forget to raise their hands etc, bang they get landed in isolation/reflection rooms.
Academisation of so many secondaries has encouraged these super strict behaviour policies, it’s a depressing element to absorb at any age.

I’m sure most schools have come up with a more workable solution for mobiles, but it just surprised me that a school could dictate what happened outside the premises, which is what led me to check the policies. They were all sensible on mobiles, basically they prohibited their use during school and punished the pupil if the rule wasn’t followed. Hunky dory! I also wanted to check the schools I want to view weren’t dictating other things I hadn’t considered beyond the premises.

I was a good, well-behaved child, without any big run-ins with teachers and only had a couple of detentions all through school. However, from the policies I’ve seen, which admittedly are only from a handful of schools, I think it would be a super feat of the highest order to avoid a detention. I can also see how it wouldn’t be that hard to get put in isolation.

I can’t imagine a child telling a teacher to “F off” or worse in my day, but it must have happened at places. There would have been assaults on teachers and pupils in schools back then too. Is it that the severe behaviour by a minority is happening more frequently now?
Is it that the size of that minority of pupils has grown? If so, and the escalation strategies in the policies allow up to exclusion, then why?

On the one hand I’m hearing about really severe behaviour, yet on the other I’m reading policies that leave little room for any human error at all. I don’t understand.

I think it would be a super feat of the highest order to avoid a detention.

I wonder why you say that? I taught in school as I say for several years and I had many many students who never had a detention. No teacher wants to give out detentions freely, I promise you.

The PP who said that a child is put in isolation when they "wear their tie the wrong way" was being flippant. I hope. That's not a thing that is happening. It may be the initial issue and then the student may refuse to correct, refuse to do as asked, talk back to the teacher, and thus it escalates.

ETA: I as a teacher was sworn at, assaulted, spat at, pushed, had things thrown at me. All that is one reason I no longer teach in school. But the vast vast majority of my students did none of those things. And I am pretty sure that's still true.

I was at a rough secondary in the nineties.

there were knife fights. Telling teachers to fuck off was a fairly regular occurrence.

i was top set and didn’t see much but you couldn’t escape it completely.

lots of kids unofficially left before gcses.

truancy is more of an issue these days - the 15 year old lads who just wanted to be a brickie or work down the market are in school because otherwise parents get fined and also no-one will employ them anymore.

schools vary massively in intake and in the behaviour they have to cope with.

@claryI’m sorry you were subjected to that. With regard to detentions, it’s because at some point I’m going to forget to tuck my shirt in, or I might want my make up bag in my school bag, or I might be late with a piece of homework, or need the toilet on my way to another lesson or I looked out of the window or tried to cover a spot with concealer or a button fell off. There’s no leeway. For on the day detentions, there might be a really good reason I can’t go and ask to do the detention a different day, but that would be speaking back, which puts you in isolation. I could just not go, but that would put me in isolation. I’m sure some of this must be a right ballache for many teachers too, but there’s probably a small minority who can abuse the system and make some kids lives utterly miserable.

@octavia,what do you think would have helped at your school?

Our school has all their policies and guidance about uniform or phone expectations plus school rules on the website

Look at the schools websites you are interested in to see if they have this information too

Ahhhh so @Chapternew you have found, as part of your research, schools that give detentions for not tucking a shirt in, having a make up bag, looking out of the window, having a missing button? And there are staff at the school to check for these things? In an industry that cannot find maths teachers, there are funds to employ staff to count students' shirt buttons and search everyone's bags? And you found this information freely shared on the school’s website?

I would love to see a link.

The Mossbourne academies are notorious for imposing hard sanctions. Even today, after all the outcry from former students and staff (link below), their uniform policy still includes this clause:

Any student who breaks a condition of the Mossbourne Uniform and Appearance
Expectations will receive a sanction in line with the behaviour policy and may be sent home,
removed from normal circulation or placed in the Behaviour Support Unit. As per the Home
Academy Agreement, parents/carers must support their child in adhering to this policy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjd383z9lyo

I worked in secondary schools in tough parts of London for over 30 years.
Firstly I would say no students behaviour hasn't changed a lot for the worst. I was breaking up fights from day one back in 1991. However what has changed is the parents behaviour. Parents used to support schools more. Not a huge amount but now many actively work against us. In my final year my school spent so much time addressing formally written lengthy malicious complaints, often written by AI some quoting invented law!
I was a head of year then a Sendco so I worked with parents who were in conflict with the school many many times. And clearly a lot of those parents were just frustrated and often my colleagues had treated them badly. I could understand them and usually managed to work with them. Mostly by using my position and limited influence to advocate for the kids.
However the weight of expectation of what schools should do and the level of engagement that many parents demand has risen so far from what it used to be that I think it is now an actual barrier to progress in schools. Many parents are locked and loaded and are not prepared to accept that school staff may know more about how to run a school than them.
Secondly detentions, most in my experience are now for lateness to school and are automatically generated by the schools register. I dont think its going to change.
Thirdly exclusion rooms may be used excessively in some schools they tend to be at the whim of whoever is in charge of the behaviour system. However even if an innocent child is placed there no harm comes to them. I have supervised them many times. I would say the biggest negative effect comes from the importance some parents place on them. Some students are told by their parents to refuse to go to them, this will result in far more serious sanctions and is very hard to sort out.
On the whole OP I would say you are correct secondary school is complicated and I would recommend telling your children to do their best to stick to the rules and trust that the school will explain them clearly. Also I would say that if they do get a detention they should check to see if they can do it at lunchtime when a discount may apply, 15 minutes instead of 30 for example, some schools do this and its very popular with the kids.

Longer detentions are scheduled in my DCs school and parents told, e.g. 'Bob has broken this rule and will do a detention after school next Tuesday'. Shorter detentions are also usually scheduled but will be done in school time, e.g. over break or lunch.

It’s fine if your kid just behaves. They might get the odd detention early on for carelessness which teaches them not to be careless. No bad thing.

They all have policies for everything. You have to go to the schools and look around, speak to the teachers, listen to the head teacher.... and then you can decide which school is the one you want.

I also went to a not great school like you @Octavia64 but was in high sets so was shielded. What would have helped was the parents giving a shit but we are talking about areas that MN from leafy suburbs haven’t set foot in.

It just won’t ever work for some and if they try and escape their background they will be seen to be up their own arse and not fit in anymore. It takes a lot to escape. I’m not talking about the respectable poor. Loads on MN will write how they have acquired social mobility I’m talking about the kids at my school who were in real problem families. I remember one lad laughing about how he got some trip, the under performing deprived kids were sent on it and he just saw it as hilarious that he could be such a dick and get rewarded for it.

You could see at age 13 who would probably end up in prison just like his Dad and Grandad, I actually knew this person, not a friend just someone local who everyone knows and he has been in prison twice already. He has also had a kid apparently, wonder if that will be generation 4.

I know a teacher in a secondary school now, good mate she said the parents that back her up when the kids misbehave have a chance in life. It’s a deprived areas, pits shut years ago, this is Notts where the Miners strike split families. Loads of her kids are at risk of county lines and have social services involved.

Pupils were telling teachers to F off at my school decades ago and a teacher who was disliked was surrounded by about 100 kids chanting his name and then for him to get out, they had found out he was an ex copper. They also barricaded the staff room once trapping a load of teachers in it, I went to a rough school, at the time I didn’t realise it was that bad because it was our normal. I still did ok. I also realise now just how much the teachers needed us well behaved ones that made an effort in places like that.

Your uniform examples above:

The first day back at secondary this year (y10), the time in form was spent doing a uniform inspection. There had been a classroom set aside for students not passing it to be sent there. After 10 minutes or so, they had to upgrade to a bigger space.

Some of the students sent there were there because of the amount of sock showing between the trouser hem and shoe. Some because stud earrings were too big. Is this actually bad behaviour?

I am not just coming at it from 'Not my precious kid', but does it give a positive start and welcome back to the term and the year? Is that also perhaps a reasonable hope, for the 14-15 yr olds, some of whom were quite nervous (2 of them were walking there from my home. They both were). This isn't rebellion any more, this is something that after a few years has given the message that whatever you do, on one count or another, you won't satisfy. Looking elsewhere for sixth form already.

@Ormallyyou’ve articulated my concern, especially about the not good enough bit. The policies badge it as high expectations, but some are just unrealistic, with no margin for error. I hear about mental health, for which there will be numerous reasons of course, but I don’t want the school itself to be part of it. I believe many parents want to support schools, but of course some won’t whatever the school does. I believe the constant drip drip drip and over surveillance isn’t helpful and pushes parents further away than they might have been.

Thank you. I think it also leads, in a slightly twisted way, to quite a few thinking long the lines of 'If I'm going to be hanged for a lamb, I might as well be hanged for a sheep.' So the question of whether the sanction is for your trousers being too fitted or not (yes, really) vs hiding a phone that is not kept as required during the day, or being late. The results lead down the same street anyway. It might hurt once, it might hoist the 'Unfair!' flag, once - but from their point of view, it gets easier if these things keep coming up.

Information on the degree that uniform will be scrutinised is not on the policies that will be published on the website, but do not let that be the only thing you look at. Ask existing students as well as any tutors on open days etc. The teachers will probably have answers ready that also don't drill down to specifics. I have seen, however, several printed notices in corridors and similar with more specific information about uniform and locker boundaries, and what happens if they are crossed, and there were specifics on those. To be fair, I have the impression that several teachers also think that this exacting level is a bit ridiculous, but it is only an impression. How would you set yourself up for a new class's optimism or cooperation with the help of a uniform check that sends more than half of them out before 8.45am on day 1?

Thank you @AyeupDuckand @Icedvanillacoffee.

Schools have a lot to deal with and are faced with truly difficult situations without structural support, as are a lot of families. This makes it more unfathomable to me why schools make such mountains over molehills. Is it really such a slippery slope if someone has a make up bag or forgets a piece of equipment they might not even need that day or their sock is the wrong length?

While examples given are worth considering, I am still interested in a link to the policies found by @Chapternew that specify detention for a missing button. I presume these must be on school websites as that if where the OP has done research and found out how hard it is to escape detention.

ETA: I should add that I worked in several schools, my own dc went to school and their friends went to other schools, and my many teacher friends teach and taught in a further range of schools. In none of those schools would a student be put in detention for any of the issues @Chapternew mentions.

Schools are made up of so many people that a small percentage is bound to be the sort that is a stickler for the rules.
I used to explicitly tell my students in assembly when I was head of year to avoid certain senior leaders. Run and hide I advised. It does seem strange, it seemed strange to me even at the time.
On the plus side some parents even those I felt the most sorry for who were struggling against horribly unfair odds, were lovely to me and really appreciated everyone who tried to help them and their children. And many of the students could tell which staff were sane and which better avoided. So a nice camaraderie developed.

@ormally.It’s also the time. Why is so much time wasted on this stuff? It’s looking out for tiny mistakes. I want to support whatever school DC ends up in, but it’s a bit easier to do that wholeheartedly when the school is more pragmatic. Every parent has their threshold, be it very high to very low. When schools are saying that parents are being less supportive overall, they should also consider how far their role plays a part in this. Parents and staff can both get overwhelmed by the level of admin/comms/actions school require.

Sometimes I make a mistake with my children. I apologise and try to rectify. One, because it’s a normal thing to do and two, to model behaviour. What happens if a teacher makes a mistake and what is that teaching?

@clarygreat, what area of the country are you based in and please can you send me links to these policies? If some are near me, I’ll consider viewing these schools. I’m not posting anything from schools near me.

The sanctions for these sorts of things are not what I expected either - looks like we have some common ground.

Alternatively, just call me a liar and then scroll on by and live your life.

Again, you need to go and see the schools. Let's look at skirt length for example - technically almost always it's really long. But over time, there always seems to be a point at which the girls and the school reach some kind of unofficial agreement on what it really is! :)

Ditto on flexibility. DS school is generally quite strict. But when you speak with them, you understand that there's some unofficial flexibility built in. For example, DS has ADHD so for codes/demerits in the first few years, he was always given an extra warning. That's not "policy" but it was absolutely what happens. And now, somewhat to my amusement, DS sometimes comes home and asks why child x sems to get more warnings than Child Y... and Child X is almost always ND! He probably still does as well, he just doesn't realis as things are a bit more stable for him.

But you only pick up this level of practicality when you go and speak with the school and listen to their presentations.