Desperate for advice- 4.5 year old wakes every night

[SandwichesAndGingerBeer]

I’m considering paying for a sleep specialist, our whole family is so sleep deprived.

Here’s the facts:

• 4.5 year old
• We have had patches of good sleep, but consistently over past few years he wakes nightly and sometimes it’s got so bad we’ve given up and co slept for periods.
• We’re grateful if we get a couple of nights where he sleeps through in a week. We’ve had some patches where we’ve got 3-4 nights, but I can’t remember the last time that happened.
• A good night is getting up once and him settling quickly, a bad one is being up for hours and unfortunately this isn’t uncommon.
• He’s also an early waker.
• Earlier this year it was brutal and we were up with him for hours at a time multiple nights a week.
• When he co sleeps with one of us he mostly sleeps really well right through the night and doesn’t wake as early, which suggests he does need the sleep.
• We’ve recently tried another effort with concerted sleep training and boundaries using a rewards system and after improvement in the first week it’s now bad again. We’re at the end of week 3 of consistent effort. I put him back in bed 15x this morning between 5 & 6am and that was after my partner had been up overnight.
• He has a gro clock and understands it, just ignores it.
• A new thing this year is saying he’s scared and referencing something he’s watched - we’ve adjusted his tv viewing as a result.
• He also doesn’t like to be alone in the day and will follow us from room to room rather than be by himself.
• He’s at pre school full time and aside from being clingy on drop off is very well adjusted there so this isn’t a child that spends 24/7 with me
• He’s totally unmotivated by reward systems - generally, not just in relation to sleep.

I’m feeling really broken and despairing this morning. It’s impacting my work, diet and exercise. It can’t be good for him either. My partner, bless him, does more than his share of wakeups because I’m perimenopausal and struggling with sleep and energy anyway.

He’s starting school soon and we have our wedding coming up in 6 weeks - we’ll have family staying and we’re going to have to bring him into our room anyway then, and then we’re off on honeymoon without him.

I’ve got to the point now where I’m considering throwing in the towel and co sleeping until October half term when we’re back from honeymoon and have some normality back. And also just helping us survive this busy period by doing the thing that gets us sleep.

I’m also considering paying for a paediatric sleep consultant.

Would appreciate hearing from those of you with similar experiences. I need tips, experience of using consultants and generally just some hope that it will get better- soon!

Bumping cos I’m desperate 😩

What's the consequence for ignoring the gro clock?

If you are looking for 'permission' to cosleep, please consider it granted. :-)

He seems to be telling you that he needs you at night. He sleeps well with you at night. If you are OK with cosleeping, please don't worry that he will never stop. He will!

In our house we've always done whatever gets everyone in the house the most sleep. Even with an autistic DD, it has worked really well.

Consider radical solutions to meet all of your needs if necessary: we had two double beds side by side for years, one for DH and one for me and DD. Looked at bit odd in the (small!) bedroom, but it felt like the height of luxury in terms of us all getting a good kip!

That sounds really hard. I have no great advice, I'm afraid. It sounds like you're reluctant to co-sleep but if it means everyone gets more sleep, it may be the right option for now. Whatever you do, he won't still be sleeping with you when he's 16!

Co sleep or a mattress next to your bedside on the floor for him. This to shall pass eventually/ my dd was like this school helped wear her out mentally then lots of sport. She went onto to compete nationally in sport training 20hrs a week plus college plus a pt job. Some kids just have more energy but it can also have a large undercurrent of anxiety hence the need to be near you. Behaviour is always communication at that young age he obviously needs you. My youngest slept like a dream in comparison but is the one who subsequently had a ASD then ADHD diagnosis despite not being anywhere near as active physically. The older one chose not to be diagnosed but would pass the bar for adhd.

All of my 4 went through a stage of waking up in the middle of the night. My son went on until about 7. We did what we had to to do to get some sleep. We had a cot mattress on the floor next to our bed and they just came in and went straight to sleep. Sometimes didn't even wake us up. They all grow out if it eventually.

I could have written this! My son is also 4.5 and never been a great sleeper and is also an early riser. He’s started waking during the night loads recently too. A few things:

• his speech has come on in the last few days, I think he was going through a big developmental stage and it had an impact on his sleep
• he’s starting school in September and I think he’s a bit anxious about it. It comes out at night and he’s seeking reassurance. He also keeps asking about death, saying he doesn’t want to grow up etc.
• I’ve just started hopping in beside him as he has a double bed and sleeping the whole night in his bed. He stirs a lot during the night but goes back asleep when he sees me there so I don’t get as disturbed as when he was coming into our bedroom during the night.
• I’m hoping it’s a phase and will pass soon when he’s settled in school

If he is anxious about things there should not be consequences. Your poor children if you think this.

Permission to co-sleep if it will help. That’s what we do when my 5 year old is feeling worried. And possibly gp to rule out nutritional deficiencies//physical health causes? I had high hopes for mighty kids supplements but struggling to get my dd to take them because she’s wary of the taste

This. Our autistic DS just never slept. Not until he was eight years old. The sleep deprivation years were truly horrendous. We bought a bigger bed and let him cosleep. We still had lots of disturbed nights, but not as many interruptions each night.

In hindsight, I would have done the following:

Insist on getting referral to a sleep clinic (from MN's research into misogyny in NHS, sadly, I'd suggest your DH takes him to the GP about this, not you, as he is more likely to be given a referral on first visit.)
Film what happens so a sleep clinic can see the patterns of waking. Or give your DS a watch that monitors sleep. You need proof, as sod's law would be you attending a sleep clinic and DS sleeping soundly every night while there.
Ask the doctor for melatonin or any other safe medication that could help him sleep.
Earlier autism testing (didn't realise until he was 12, as he is high functioning and - ironically - we were so sleep deprived we were just crawling through each day)
Paying a night nurse, or take turns to rent a room in a cheap hotel once a week so each parent gets at least one unbroken night's sleep per week. Seriously, we should have remortgaged our house to do this. The effects of eight years sleep deprivation on us was severe. And it impacted DS too. He is very short. Children grow during sleep.

Bingo@YoungSoak - mine has started asking about death too.

When will trees die? When will dogs die? When will all the people die? When will [list of everyone at nursery] die? When will you die? 😬

I too have been clinging too the “school anxiety/development leap” thought. I suppose people are right - I am looking for permission to co sleep and we can reassess once he’s settled at school.

Just want to thank everyone for responding, it was a particularly bad night and morning and I’ve been at my wits end - clearly whatever we’re doing isn’t working so we need to rethink and come up with a plan that’s kinder to all of us.

I'm so glad that a lot people are suggesting this. I don't know why so many parents always complain of taking their children back to bed multiple times a night. They just want to be be near their parents and feel safe. Nothing wrong with that. It's normal. As I said in my post I went through this with all of my 4.

My 6 and 4 year old end up in my bed most nights. I think this is a more common problem that many parents face.

In our house we prioritise sleep and whatever we need to do for a good nights sleep hence them being allowed to get into our bed.

It won’t last forever - or so I tell myself!

Why can’t he cosleep? It clearly works

Well he has for periods. Honestly I’m not anti it, it’s definitely the best sleep for all of us. But for it to properly work, if he comes into our bed one of us has to go into his- we have a super king but he kicks and wriggles and there needs to be a pillow barrier between the adult and him! So it’s a balance isn’t it - when we’re co sleeping my partner and I don’t get to sleep together, and that’s not our preferred sleeping arrangement for prolonged periods, but we’re getting to needs must.

@BeachgSunrise @Iloveeverycat

I like the mattress next to the bed - I think we will trial that. Hopefully he will be happy coming in and putting himself to sleep there without lots of disruption.

That way we can keep bedtime routine in his room.

I would consider a double bed for him in his room. In the West and in this historical period we are the odd ones out for not cosleeping.

At 5 in the morning he is unlikely to have enough melatonin left in his system to go back to sleep. I would make a rule that he can get up and play in his room until 6.

@Itshotinherebutainttakingoffmyclothes that is the rule but he won’t stay in his room alone!

My 4.5 year old rarely sleeps through the night, never has. We got a small double bed for her room and one of us (usually me) goes in with her. The bonus hopefully being that it will do her until she leaves home! Saved my sanity.

Lots of school anxiety here too, plus questions about death. She has also suddenly acquired various skills, so I think there’s a lot going on developmentally at this age.

I'd cosleep for now, until your forthcoming visitors etc are done. Then get a double mattress in his room and take it in turns to sleep in there with him, if necessary. it's completely normal for children to need parental presence to sleep, and it's the global and historical norm for families to bedshare. It's only in the modern west that's there's such an obsession with kids sleeping alone.

In the nicest way though, what you prefer isn't the most important thing in here. Kids want to be with their parents - it's normal. After all, as you say, you want to sleep with your partner so why should your 4yo be expected to sleep alone?

Just to give you some hope- my DD started needing to sleep next to me at night just after she turned 4. We tried to 'fix' it for a week and then just gave in as we realised that everyone getting the sleep they needed was the most important thing. She carried on with this for just over a year, when she abruptly decided she wanted her own bed back and she is now 5.5 and sleeping in her own bed again with no issues. Fingers crossed for you that he grows out of it at some point soon!

@pinkandwhiteroses also in the nicest way, I think it’s clear I’m on here because I’m willing to consider anything and recognise the current approach isn’t working, but I’m sure it’s also normal to think having your own space as a couple is also important and shouldn’t be abandoned without trying other things first.

We are a family with three members and although we frequently put our son’s needs first, that is not the default mode.

All the kids we know ARE happily sleeping in their own room without their parents, so from our current experience it isn’t normal to sleep with your kid and not your partner.

It’s been really helpful to hear comments on here about others experiences and feel a bit less alone in this.

Agree with suggestions to put a double bed in DS's room - this was our next step, after DD stopped wanting to be in the same bedroom at night as DH but still very much needed me.

I put her to bed in there, sometimes just went to bed with her, sometimes I was fetched in the night but only ever had to wake up once. I slept the rest of the night in her bed.

That way, once she was finally ready to sleep alone (which wasn't until she turned 15... but she has significant additional needs that meant cosleeping was needed much longer than usual), she was already used to sleeping in her own room. There was a transitional period where sometimes she fetched me and sometimes she didn't. But eventually we both realised that she was successfully sleeping alone all night, without needing me. She was very proud of herself for that.

She now sleeps with the dog instead, which works very well all round!