Andy to introduce new technical pathways for GCSEs in 2028(!)

[noblegiraffe]

Or perhaps not GCSEs but some other sort of qualification which will apparently tie into local industry, for students going into Y8 in September.

"The “prestigious” new technical pathways, which will pair skills training with work experience and connections with local employers, are set to be rolled out from September 2028."

Is Andy Burnham actually mad? 2028? Does he realise that it actually takes time to develop qualifications (or 'skills training'), resource them (particularly technical ones which require more equipment than a maths lesson) and then find the teachers to actually teach them? And the local employers to do the work experience? One of the major problems with setting up T-levels was problems with finding work placements, and that's for age 16+.

I know he has the MBacc in Manchester (although this seems to be merely a label for a set of already existing qualifications rather than new ones - does anyone have any experience of this?) but I expect it is easier to organise work experience for kids in a large city with good transport links than it would be in a more rural/coastal area - and the problem with a lot of those places is a lack of job opportunities for young people in the first place.

And he's announced this in the summer holidays, which one of his teacher relatives should really have warned him is what is considered a 'dick move' in education.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/schools-prime-minister-burnham-lucy-powell-ofsted-b1291512.html

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/secondary/new-technical-pathways-for-students-announced-by-andy-burnham

Andy should also be aware that calling them 'prestigious technical pathways' is a noble effort, but there is, and always has been a massive issue with vocational subjects being seen as lesser than academic ones. If these prestigious pathways end up being for the kids who are not going to get decent GCSEs - which is always the kids who people think should do vocational qualifications - then they will not be prestigious and the middle classes will continue to steer their kids down the academic route.

The system where kids are selected for the Gymnasium (basically the grammar school) or not at aged around 10? We know from international data that this doesn't select clever kids for the grammar school as much as it selects children of the well-off.

Anyway, I did a bit of digging and discovered that Bavaria is actually the worst region in Germany for the comparative chance of a disadvantaged kid getting into a Gymnasium as a kid from a non-disadvantaged background.

So yeah, I don't think we should be copying Bavaria if you're a fan of social mobility.

https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/sd-2024-05-ungleiche-bildungschancen-woessmann-etal-.pdf
(I'm assuming you read German)

I think if the middle classes become less snobby about it they will encourage their academic kids to go for the places if it means they'll get a well paid job!

I assume AB is suggesting this for children who don't do well at school but middle class parents are already cottoning onto the fact that an expensive uni education no longer guarantees a well paid job, hence the degree apprenticeships going to the hard working kids with qualifications.

I don't see this helping the kids who don't have parents who actually care about their kid's education and future job prospects.

And I don't believe there are enough employers willing to get involved.

Yes but I'd be surprised any do anything with 14-15 year olds other than school visits. Have you tried arranging year 10 work experience?!

There are also a LOT of areas of the country not adjacent to those places and like it or not, the English school system operates on "one size fits all".

I don't know about the Bavarian system (it sounds good) but I do know a little about the Swiss system and we can't turn the UK into Switzerland without their culture (respect for trades), their politics, their tax system and their government spending.

I also wonder if it is likely that the Bavarian companies are German rather than foreign owned like ours.

There was some sort of initiative around 2013 to have engineering/ technical/ level 2 vocational qualifications. I can't remember what it was called. I do remember the headteacher of the school I worked in being in despair at yet another brilliant idea he had to implement with no extra funding. That died quietly as getting the work experience required was nigh on impossible.

Sellafield and BAE want apprentices for sure - but they want them to have qualifications first: they're not going to be falling over themselves to take Bob in year ten on work experience every week.

Why would it be seen as a dumping ground If young people can see the worth of doing something they are able to do Some people genuinely like sweeping up and not having to be over sociable Plumbers earn a lot don't they a lot better training than a useless degree

Create degree pathways for care So carers are less despised and for electricians

I’m not sure sweeping up would be seen as a valuable use of a 14 year old’s time and rather as child labour.

I can see - that, even with the best of intentions the timescale is unrealistic.
My DH, and 2 of his brothers are ND, and 2 of them are dyslexic. They didnt do well at school but all have done apprenticeships and had decent careers in skilled trades and construction. However they left school a generation ago in the 1970s/80s.
I started my own career on a city and guilds youth training scheme. You got a very minimal amount of wages (even for the time - I had a Saturday job, as well, that paid more in a day than I got in a week) and travel paid, but learned a skill.
@noblegiraffe how do you think the current system could - or should - be improved, with alternatives to the traditional academic ? Its easy as a non teacher, or not in education to think that it could be a decent idea, but I see you and other teachers, are more sceptical (and obviously have more insight to how these schemes pan out)

I'm not talking about a fourteen year old being made to sweep up just being aware that being solitary is a preference for some people Encouraging people to do what they are happy doing Some people struggle with work because of bullying in the workplace Maybe pupils who are lacking confidence can be helped into self employment

Once upon a time, every 14 year old lad who wanted to learn started with a broom. Those who did it well and willingly were snapped up by teams for training. In an engineering city in the early 30s, my grandad went on and up, through the draughting office and via night school, ended his career as Chief Standards Engineer speaking fluent French in the team that built Concorde.

All those industries where youngsters currently can’t get jobs, so will the 14yo go on and get jobs there and the already qualified young people not get a look in

Will girls from working class families get pressured into care work? Be a good way of filling the vacancies Im getting more cynical as i get older.

A massive problem with the comparison to the olden days of 'my dad didn't get any qualifications and it didn't do him any harm' is that we aren't living in the olden days anymore.

The jobs that kids could leave school and go onto without qualifications are mostly gone - I mentioned upthread the factory near my school which used to be a big local employer closed and went overseas and the same has happened to so many other factories leaving a hole in local employment prospects (not quite as bad as what happened to mining communities but still a significant loss). Then you have lots of other jobs which were done by humans now being done by robots or computers (e.g. self-service everywhere). And there is a population bulge coming through secondary schools.

What we absolutely don't want to do is shut down kids' options before we need to. We have to give them every possible chance to get that grade 4+ in maths and English which will keep so many doors open for them. We absolutely cannot decide too early on that some are destined to work in 'local industry' and clip their wings.

One problem we had with work experience back in the pre-Gove BTEC days was that kids who opted for a particular route like construction or childcare would do work experience one day a week, which seems great, but what that meant was missing a day of school a week. They were missing a quarter of their maths lessons, which obviously impacted their ability to get the best maths GCSE grade that they could. So we really have to be careful about work experience if it means missing school.

Another point is this view it creates of school as a utilitarian institution designed to churn out workers for local companies rather than an institution designed to educate children to be well-rounded citizens. Where is @piggywaspushed ? She is always very vocally scathing of the suggestion that kids should be learning something useful that will earn them money instead of studying Shakespeare.

Is it critical that kids start learning bricklaying or hairdressing or plumbing skills at 14? Or can they learn those skills just as usefully (or in fact in a far more useful way) at 16, and should they have the opportunity to study art or music or drama while they still can at 14?

There is definitely a problem in schools where underfunding has meant that schools have had to make teachers redundant and cut courses - and these have obviously been the subjects that don't count towards the Ebacc or are restricted in Progress 8. Art, music, dance, food tech, product design...widen the GCSE offering again. Roll back the cancelling of BTECs that could be done as an option without hampering the rest of the curriculum and recognise them in league tables measures.

Save the narrow vocational-focused curriculum for post-16.

What to do about the disaffected kids who aren't engaging with the curriculum? That's a really tricky one, a pp mentioned ASDAN courses that we used to run before Gove. Pre-Gove we used to enter them for their maths and English GCSE in the November Y11 sitting in an effort to try to get them some qualifications before a bunch of them inevitably stopped showing up for school. Or they'd often get put on 'early study leave' before Easter. The huge focus on attendance now means that a lot of those kids (I say kids, it's usually boys) who used to stop turning up now turn up for the whole of Y11 but obviously aren't particularly engaging with the work.

Something needs to be done for them but there are a lot of constraints on schools at the moment with league tables pressures. I don't think expecting local employers to take on and sort out this particular group of kids at 14 is a winning solution though. A lot of disaffected boys have issues with literacy - maybe tackling this as a priority early on would be more effective?

I've been teaching 15 years and I think it would be fantastic if it took off.

It would probably take a multi party effort and at least 3 Parliaments though, with consistent planning, funding, implementation and leadership.

Larry the cat has outlasted SIX prime ministers and Burnham's not even proved he can be elected.

The other things that concern me (apart from the increasing difficulty of securing work experience) are: the real terms fall in funding per pupil throughout the 15 years I've been teaching, the cart and horses Labour are currently driving through the SEND system, the falling birth rate and the de-funding of BTECs (which actually work) before the T levels and V levels have properly taken off. If they do.

And as pp said, the lack of suitable teachers, to which I would add, behaviour management is absolutely crucial dealing with potentially dangerous equipment/in real environments so there would be huge question regarding supervision in factories etc.

I should clarify re population: the cohort currently in schools peaked in 2024 when the 2012-13 birth year entered year 7.

School funding is per pupil so while you'd think falling numbers would ease cost pressures, it actually makes things worse because you still need the teacher even if the class is slightly smaller and in the meantime schools need to think about redundancies, merging classes or even closing - this has already started in inner London where there was population drain post Covid.

I have taught vocational education since the introduction of TVEI in the 1980's. OP you are determined this won't work.
Work experience can be flexible - you really don't need to miss all those maths lessons.
I am guessing you are directly involved in education, you always talk with such sweeping authority. Maybe be glad we are at least thinking about how to get young people into work.

I’m a TA and I think it’s a much needed idea. It will keep many more children engaged in school education and provide a workforce with practical skills.

My experience of trying to organise kids to get work experience is often not met with flexible and eager employers.

In your long experience of vocational education, which has been the most successful approach for 14 year olds?

I work with teens in a non education setting. A significant number want a vocational route and not academic gsces and know this by 14

Burnham's MBacc route has the vocational children still studying maths, English, literature and the sciences.

I'm not sure children should be allowed to opt out of these.

Yes @noblegiraffe but luckily our high also offers btecs at Yr10 in things like construction and hair & beauty as opposed to languages or history.

I recently worked with some Yr9 boys who literally didn’t see the point of some subjects. I showed them what they could do at Y10 and now they are looking at btec enterprise and btec construction and planning to go self employed. Suddenly they see themself in a future

Ideally they'd offer both.

When the govt introduced T-levels, in order to force take-up, they decided to scrap BTECs post-16. Let's hope that doesn't happen with this new 'pathway'.

I've worked with plenty of boys in Y10/11 who literally don't see the point of maths so we shouldn't always be guided by what they see the immediate point of...