To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

She’s thick as mince 😂😂😂😂😂 bless her.

I think it is Mrs Thatcher reincarnated (god help us!) - "There is no such thing as society." Silly woman.

Because that isn't society.

Sometimes I read a thread, that sounds so utterly awful it makes me grateful for the life I have. This one makes me grateful to live in the civilised society I do. I claim no benefits, we pay huge tax bills (because we’re fortunate enough to make that kind of money) and I’m proud to contribute to a country that supports its most vulnerable people. It’s not all ‘lazy people who won’t work because they’re anxious’. It sounds like you’ve never been unfortunate enough to find yourself on hard times. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone but I do hope you manage to develop a little empathy for others.

I don't believe I am stupid

Case in point.

So through no fault of my own I am stabbed in the street and I am expected to pay for the police to investigate the attempted murder and for the ambulance and then drs to help save my life? All on the wage of a TA type role? Have a word with yourself. Stupid rage bait post.

I was going to say that I was having a conversation the other day about the decline in educational attainment over the past few years and then I read you went to university 35 years ago so frankly, you’ve not excuse.

I suggest you read John Rawls’s work on the Veil of Ignorance, then think about how you’d design society, and then go and think about the incredibly blessed life you’ve clearly lead.

I assume the lethal injections and poor house graves are cheap in ops world. mass grave for the underibles who've been seen off swiftly at the local death house.

A big career in politics beckons for you - go for it, and I look forward to reading your 30-year implementation plan.

OK - can you explain what would happen to my learning disabled child in this society of yours? Is it my job to support her for all my life? And then when I die? And she costs more than the average person but of course I didn't know she would be learning disabled when I was pregnant so couldn't account for it. It just makes no sense as an idea OP.

If you feel that strongly fuck off to the US and see how you like it

Just btw, where were you educated. The basics of insurance, supply and demand and basic economics have escaped you.

PS: Edited as I note that you're university educated and worked in finance, albeit not recently. We'll just go with a selfish, mean minded with no care for social awareness kind of personality.

I'm sure there are countries more closely aligned with your ideals, OP. No need to turn this one to shit, as well.

So, if you get an illness where you literally cannot work, you'd have those people sitting and begging on the street would you?
I really hope you get so ill one day where you can't work and then you might see what's it's like, you hideous ignorant specimen!
Why would you kick someone when they are already down?!
Then I hope you get better (as I wouldn't wish illness on my worst enemy), but at least you might have an ounce of understanding!!!!! As it is, just please go away and never post again because you're embarrassing yourself
Yours angrily!

I’m trying to decide whether to seriously engage with this thread. On balance I think not.

But, there is an interesting satirical musical called Urinetown (I promise I’m not a troll, it’s real) which explores the impact on society where people have to pay to use the loo, the ultimate capitalism if you like. Without giving too many spoilers I believe it leads to revolution and societal collapse.

OP, so far I believe my family have been net contributors to the state. But, I know I will get old and people consume most of the NHS resources they use at the end of life. My children are both healthy, but I knew if they were born with disabilities or if the develop a childhood severe illness there’ll be some support in place. I’m happy to pay more than I take back to have that peace of mind. I also don’t begrudge those who have to take more than they can put in.

Very radical thoughts though and you’ve certainly created debate.

The funding of a legal system is not a "little thing " neither is how the democratic system would be funded. Are you anticipating a pay per vote and return to disenfranchisement of the poorest in society? Where you can't bring a prosecution against someone for assault because you've spent your budget on the associated healthcare costs? Also surely country charge is just another word for tax? Before you ask I'm a higher rate tax payer, as is DH, and I think your ideas are so twisted as to be beyond comprehension.

Even the (true) anarchists allowed for the provision of basic necessities for all, and the support of the weak by the stronger, just that natural human morality would drive this without the need for state enforcement.
What OP is proposing sounds more like the ramblings of a not very bright person who has so far enjoyed a lucky life.

Tbh they're probably also really dim and unable to think through it all. Hopefully they will read the thread and have to truly think what such a country would actually be like.

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare
We don't live in a capitalist society.
We live in a mixed market economy.
Your whole OP seems to be based on a basic misunderstanding.

Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated
Yes. You could call it a Tax...

Nobody pays any tax or ni so if you find yourself disabled/ill then you have a bank of money to fall back on
What if that happens to you when you are young enough to have not yet managed to make enough money to support yourself for the rest of your disabled life?

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off
So who would want to do the low paid jobs then? No one. Then what do you do when no one wants to empty your bins or deliver your parcels? You already said 'Of course wages would not be the same' to would all jobs be paid the same so who in their right mind would want to do the low paid jobs? After all, we'd all have the same excellent education because we would have paid for it.
And btw working hard does not (and never has) always equal being highly paid.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others
Well, and not for the first time on this thread, you'd be wrong.
I make plenty of money through running my own business. I'm very happy to live in a country that looks after the vulnerable and others who need a safety net.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else
Or you could.
Don't think Afghanistan has social security, you'd love it.

a libertarian/minarchist vision (close to "night-watchman state" ideas from thinkers like Robert Nozick or classical liberals): government limited mostly to national defense and a few indivisible public goods, funded by a flat "country charge." All other services (healthcare, education, policing, pensions, ambulances) would be private, paid directly by users or through personal savings/insurance. No income tax/NI, no welfare, phased transition over decades, with opt-out via emigration. The goal is personal responsibility, efficiency, and rewarding hard work in a capitalist system

@LettingTheBadThingsGo Do you realise what you have proposed is no different from the movie The Purge? All crime is legal unless you can afford to pay for private security.

Even pre-welfare-state people paid taxes to fund things like the police force/government/court houses, etc.

Hi there OP, talk me through this please. A few years ago I was violently sexually assaulted by stranger when i was walking home from work. Would I have had to pay for all my interactions with the police and the courts, and if I lacked the resources should my attacker been allowed to go free and attack more women? Looking forward to your response, maybe you could include some projected costings and your reasoning as to why in your anarchic dystopia tackling crime would be optional depending on the financial resources of the individual

This is written by AI because I really cannot be arsed to write it all down myself. Your ideas are utterly batshit.

Here is what taxation pays for that you cannot buy personally:

Diplomatic and consular representation — no individual can negotiate treaties or maintain embassies on their own behalf.
The criminal justice system — courts, prosecution service, prisons; individuals can hire lawyers but cannot buy access to adjudication or the power to imprison.
Currency and monetary stability — the Bank of England’s function as lender of last resort and currency issuer isn’t purchasable by anyone.
Border control and immigration enforcement — sovereign control over who enters the territory.
Public health surveillance and disease control — pandemic monitoring, notifiable disease systems; individual healthcare can be bought, but population-level disease control cannot.
Defence
Individual cannot purchase military protection, deterrence, or the right to wage or prevent war. The state holds monopoly on legitimate force; no private individual can buy an aircraft carrier, a nuclear deterrent, or the diplomatic standing that comes with them. Wholly tax-funded, no market substitute exists.
Power — original national grid
The National Grid was created by the Electricity (Supply) Act 1926, built and initially run by the Central Electricity Board, a public body funded through the Exchequer and bond issues underwritten by government. Individuals could not have built a national transmission network themselves — the capital cost, land rights (compulsory purchase), and need for a single coordinated system made it a state undertaking from the outset. If it didn’t exist you couldn’t buy it.

But sure, let’s get everyone to pay for everything themselves.

Also you’re wrong about the departure of rich people. Again, from AI because this post has already taken 10 minutes of my very precious time and it is not worth any more of it.

Estimates of wealthy departures range from Henley & Partners’ figure of roughly 16,500 millionaires in 2025 (a firm that sells relocation and residence-by-investment services) to UBS projections of steeper losses by 2028, but independent analysis from the Tax Justice Network, cross-checked against HMRC data, puts actual migrating millionaires at under 1% of the UK’s millionaire population in any given year, with the number of non-doms leaving in line with or below official forecasts rather than showing a spike. Named departures such as Lakshmi Mittal, John Fredriksen, and Herman Narula are real, and the removal of non-dom status alongside income tax up to 45%, capital gains tax at 24%, and inheritance tax at 40% are the cited drivers, but set against a UK millionaire population in the millions and an ultra-high-net-worth population that grew 12.1% between 2021 and 2026, the departures represent a small fraction of the total rather than a mass exodus.

This had me in stitches. Honestly... I really needed a laugh. Thank you.
OP this is the only reply your post merits.

Singapore comes closest in spirit for healthcare and welfare philosophy. It emphasizes personal responsibility via mandatory savings (Central Provident Fund/Medisave), compulsory medical savings accounts, co-payments, and insurance to avoid a "welfare state mentality." Healthcare mixes public subsidies (targeted) with private provision; outcomes are excellent (high life expectancy, low costs relative to GDP). Education is high-quality with choice elements and fees. Low taxes overall, strong emphasis on self-reliance and family support. However, it retains significant government involvement, subsidies for the needy (MediFund), public housing, and isn't fully privatized policing/ambulance.

and the children who are disabled but bright or average?