A question about Henry Nowak….

[CurlewKate]

Is there any actual evidence to support the suggestion that this completely awful event had anything to do with with “two tier policing” and was a hideous example of appalling policing and in particular, appalling first responding? It is unforgivable that the police didn’t check Nowak properly for injuries. But there was no weapon at the scene and the police were met with 4 people who had called them and were all telling the same story.They made assumptions which they would probably have made regardless of the ethnicity of the people involved. And in 999 cases out of 1000 the assumptions would have been right. The sort of judgement call the police have to make all the time. So it seems to me that it’s not about policy, it’s about incompetence.

Considering the Met police were found to be a racist force only a few years ago, I’d say there is two tier policing but it isn’t against white people.

People seem to not know that the brother of the killer had a nine minute phonecall with a 999 handler where he repeated numerous times there were no weapons and his brother was being attacked. Of course the police would have initially thought Henry was in the wrong.
They didn't listen to him and that is due to those individuals’ incompetence and not following standard training about accessing a situation.

I can absolutely see a situation where this would happen.

Think @CurlewKate would be saying “well most of the time he might have been racist, and it was 4 against 1, so the right thing happened, but yeah, poor you”.

Are you a police officer?

Suspect a lot of people won't engage with you out of fury and frustration

Have you read much about the case? Have you heard the full version of the phone call that was made when the police officer was clearly leading them to make accusations of racism

Also, if you just look at the footage and you don't know anything else about the case

The first thing that happens is the father tells them that Henry's mouth is full of blood and he can't sit up even with help

So what possible reason do they have for not checking Henry over properly straight away?

I think you'll probably interpret that as being more information in favour of what you're trying to say

But basically, they did not listen to the white man

Do you know that the family was known to the police, that they stole knives from the local Gudwara, they were known for intimidating people there, they were also reported to the police for shooting guns in the back garden

apart of anything else they should have been flagged up as local troublemakers

But even if you take the decision in isolation, the people doing the reporting told them that Henry couldn't sit up and his mouth was full of blood

Have you also seen the training material that the police have explicitly telling them not to treat races equally - that's probably the biggest giveaway.

Henry was at a disadvantage straight away because he was white

🙄

OP, the whole situation was absolutely unacceptable - if there’s someone who is OK and standing up, and someone else on the ground, you deal with the person on the ground. The police hauled him up and then handcuffed him with his hands behind his back. This could have contributed to his death - this is a comment left on X that was posted by a commenter below an article in the Spectator -

Translated from Polish
🟥 Could Henry Nowak have survived?
Dr. Krzysztof Magier, a pediatrician and former honorary consul of the Republic of Poland in Cowes, analyzed footage from a police body camera showing Henry Nowak's death.
Dr. Magier heads the pediatric intensive care unit, with experience in combat medicine training and a specialized course in treating severe injuries (including gunshot and stab wounds).
He disagrees with the pathologist's and judge's opinion that Henry Nowak had no chance of survival and that handcuffing him essentially changed nothing. On the contrary—there is a high likelihood that the police intervention contributed to his death.
He analyzed the autopsy report, which points to damage to the subclavian vein as the main source of bleeding, and explains where the problem lies.
In a healthy person, venous bleeding occurs under low pressure and often self-limits thanks to the naturally forming clot, while simply approximating the wound edges and compressing the surrounding tissues closes the vein enough to slow or even stop the bleeding.
The body camera footage shows that when police arrived on the scene (likely 5-10 minutes after the injury), Henry was conscious enough to speak quite loudly. He was therefore not yet in a terminal state. After his arms were twisted behind his back and handcuffed, the vein was most likely stretched, the clot torn, and bleeding dramatically intensified. Within just about three minutes, he lost consciousness and died.
People with suspected internal injuries should never be moved or yanked abruptly—such actions can destroy the natural clot and lead to massive internal hemorrhage.
Instead of immediately calling a medical rescue team and handing the patient over to paramedics, the police handcuffed him. If paramedics had arrived first on the scene, Henry’s chances of survival would have been much higher. "50%"—writes Dr. Magier.
Paramedics could have quickly started an IV, administered fluids to increase circulating blood volume, and tranexamic acid to stabilize the clot, and if needed, performed needle decompression (inserting a large, long needle into the lung), because the issue wasn’t so much lack of lung function, but compression of the blood-filled lung on the heart and mediastinum, which blocks circulation.
Worse still, the incident took place just a few minutes' drive by car (2–3 minutes by ambulance with sirens) from Southampton University Hospital—a regional Major Trauma Centre equipped with a full team of specialists, procedures, and equipment. "I am convinced that if Henry had arrived there alive, the doctors would not have let him die"—writes Dr. Magier.
In summary: the aggressive police intervention, instead of saving a life, led to death through improper handling of a severely injured person, even though world-class care was just minutes away. "I fear the Judge and pathologist were too lenient toward the police"—writes Dr. Magier.

Yes I can too. Particularly if the man on the ground was young and the people standing around were a family of 4 and there was no sign of a weapon. And if one of those 4 had actually called the police.

@LizzieSiddal "considering the Met police were found to be a racist force only a few years ago, I’d say there is two tier policing but it isn’t against white people."

what sort of timeframe are you looking at? You obviously cannot be talking about the institutional racism report in 1999.

this. I was a police investigator for years. Most people are making the mistake of coming at it from a POV of assuming other people being arrested would act in a 'normal' way, or the way they would themselves. However sadly lots of people being arrested are not lovely reasonable people - many are very used to police interaction and know exactly what to try - saying 'I can't breathe' for example is so commonplace it would be more unusual for someone NOT to say it.

Sometimes it's because being handcuffed (particularly to the rear) IS uncomfortable and you can feel a bit restricted. A lot of the time it's just said to try and get the cuffs loosened, or because they are already thinking about trying to make a complaint and claim for ill-treatment, or just to shit talk.

Same applies for people pretending they are far more injured than they actually are.

If you actually watch the video after he said he'd been stabbed they did try and search his body for signs of injury, and when he said he couldn't breathe they helped him into a sitting position (less restricted).

As the pp said, it is very unusual for the "attacker" to remain at the scene and appear calm, and also for someone who is so severely injured to not show any/very minimal evidence of it.

This does not mean that the police acted appropriately or they should be completely exonerated - but that's why their actions are being investigated by an organisation specifically designed to do that (the IOPC), who will consider it in the full context of what is normal for a policing situation, what they were told before attending and upon arrival, what training they'd had, what best practice is, etc. rather than what Joe Bloggs off the street whose closest experience to an arrest is watching the Bill, thinks.

@newyearnoeu I winced when I heard him say I can't breathe because I know people say it so often now it probably goes against them

But

Arrive on the scene with no coherent information

First thing that happens is the householder tells you the lad on the floor has blood in his mouth and cannot sit up un aided

Second thing that happens is that lad tells you - I've been stabbed

Not difficult to make 2+2 = 4 from that situation and decide to search him properly for injury and call for ambulance

looking around the men standing up and asking about other injuries doesn't make a huge amount of sense before calling for an ambulance

The neighbours were coming out they needed to control the narrative self defense is better than murder

Or it could be possible they’ve over-compensated the other way (in some instances).

So why the level of force from the police , egged on by this wonderful family who were pretending to be victims while Henry bled to death because of the violence of one of them? They were so fearful of the hurty words? While of course condoning the violence. And all the bleeding hearts, desperate to show “look at meeee! I’m so righteous and wonderful” like the op support them, and facilitate them with the “well some young white boys are racist so whoops, these things happen”

And so basically if people want to horribly murder someone, all you need to do is :call the police, kill them, say “they said mean words” and the police should then arrest them, even if they’re dying, because your lies are backed up by your friends/family? So truth doesn’t matter, it’s the number of people willing to lie about you murdering someone?

Depressing isn’t it

What did I see on another thread, “this is just the once and one boy, whataboutery..”

The problem is that there is legislation to support the idea that it is police policy; certain groups are given higher privelidge because they are seen as marginalised groups and it is written into law.
David Lammy admitted this during a recent interview, and gave the traveller community as an example.
The problem is that this can be weaponised by the members of the community and it ends up setting the police upon an innocent perpitrator.

Examples include:
Graham Linehan -arrested at Heathrow for tweets inciting 'suspicion of inciting violence' against a protected group. The activist who made the complaint weaponised the legislation to use the police as an attack weapon.

Elizabeth Kenny - arrested for using a homophobic slur (the f- slur) by 6 policemen. Her ex- friend had handed in her phone and accused her of harrasment, but the police only acted when they saw 'the word'. She was assaulted by a man in connection with the dispute, but he was never charged. She got a 12 month community order and had to pay costs and a victim surcharge.

Henry Novak - brother to 999 call as an attack weapon when he called the police, as he knew they would take it seriously:

During the call (6.21) .....brother: .sorry let me just ask him - Vic Vic ? did he racially say anything to you did he racially say anything he called him a **

call handeler : 'Thankyou that's all I needed to know.'

When the police arrived they were primed to look at Henry as the perpitratior and thelegislation is very divisive.

There are two different problems that co exist in the police and other public services

i think there is racism

there are also people who probably aren’t racist but live in fear of being accused of racism. It is (as we have seen) one of the most serious allegations you can make. So, off the top of my head you have the following poor decisions made to avoid being seen as racist

• security guard at Manchester arena did not challenge the bomber because he feared being accused of racism
• axel rudekabana- teachers feared racism allegations
• Valdo Calocane not sectioned because of concerns about over representation of black men
• sara sharif - her dad uses hijab to hide injuries and nobody raises concerns
• and of course child rape gangs not investigated not just because of fears of appearing racist, but also a conscious decision due to community cohesion

these are real decisions being taken because being accused of racism is more worrying than public safety. That’s real, it’s a problem and it needs to be discussed and solved

"Ive been stabbed"
"I dont think you have mate"

How much more do you need?

But according to @CurlewKate and others, he was only one person (albeit bleeding to death on the ground) and FOUR people all said he was the violent one… so of course righteousness in numbers….

Loads more.

That’s evidence of an absolute lack of compassion, of some truly shit policing, of dismissiveness.

But it’s not evidence of 2 tier policing, because it doesn’t show that they’d have done anything differently because of the colour of his skin.

That’s not what I said. We need to use our brains not our emotions in considering this horrendous situation.

And the fact that the Times released an article very soon after saying the two tier policing needed to change.