Is bankruptcy inevitable now for the UK

[BringOnTheHandyMan]

In the most layman of terms the UK is actually broke.

Every month we cannot pay the interest on our outstanding debt and thus have to borrow more. (Note this is not repaying the capital, just the interest)

The rate we pay to borrow used to be quite low and that is not the case anymore.
The bond markets have lost faith in the UK and charge us a rate that reflects it.

We have systems we can no longer afford (welfare, NHS etc)
We have little to no growth
We have inflation issues (so printing money is out)
Raising or cutting interest rates is problematic due to having both growth and inflation issues together
Our politicians are scrapping like rats in a barrel and even prior to that they seem incapable of making hard decisions or even facing up to the mess we are in.

We do actually need a PM that stands up and says okay folks we are in deep shit. We are broke. Actually worse than that. In debt and unable to pay even the interest.
So any borrowing we do must be for investing/growing the economy only. All spare money must be used for paying down debt or investing/growing the economy. That means for the foreseeable future all state funding is scrapped. We would enter a period of being very much a 'poor country' and acting like it. If we worked really hard we might be able to turn it around but it would take years, hard decisions and many, many sacrifices.

Since I can't see any party being able to actually do that. Then I honestly don't see how we can go anywhere except an IMF bailout. Then they will play the tough guys and cut the lot anyway.

I try to plan for my retirement but honestly it's sort of impossible.

For those with public sector pensions I wouldn't be sure you will get it paid
For those with private defined contribution pensions, the stock market is vastly overpriced just now and your pension is likely to fall once the AI bubble bursts.
State pension - yip not convinced we'll be getting that
Costs to be budgeted for - healthcare but how much?
Downsize my house - perhaps but will house prices tumble making this impossible.

Does anyone think that any government (regardless of party) can fix the country. If not what happens. The UK used to have no NHS or welfare so do we just go back to that. How long will it be until the wheels come off?

Lots of threads about which benefits should be cut etc but nobody seems to be shouting that actually it ALL needs to be cut regardless of what hardship it causes.

There’s so little logic in this.

Lots of Europe spend more taxpayers’ money on healthcare as well as copayments. “Getting more money out of people” ultimately has exactly the same effect whether you call it tax or additional insurance or payments for treatments.

Once more for those at the back you can’t improve a slow economy with an unhealthy workforce and the only way to ensure fair access to healthcare is to ensure it’s free to people at all income levels.

Thanks! I'm in my 50s too and not naive to the fact that as individuals we have little power, but I feel it's important to make my voice heard in discussions like this in the hope that, if people in positions of power are looking at discussions like this, it might have some impact!

Ok so you have said a co-pay system and perhaps that is the answer. I think that would be a good outcome for us all if the country can afford that and may well be what the IMF put in place (although hoping a govt will reform it before this)

I think refusing to consider the possibility that the UK can't afford to continue with the current NHS is pretty daft. That's okay though if we disagree. It's interesting to get other points of view.

Others have mentioned the euro model of healthcare and co-pay and this does sound like something we should/could try in the UK. I think most would find that an acceptable way forward.

Copayments and more tax are exactly the same thing by different names.

Cool, now solve America's problems. You've got plenty.

Would old people set in their ways really move their whole life to another country. That sounds very disruptive. Or would they just use some of their money to pay for the care they need. I don't know. I don't fancy moving to a new country is old age.

I agree with lots of your points though - nobody should be getting benefits for depression and I speak from experience of having been on antidepressants many times. Take the tabs and get back to work.

Also right to die - I agree with you. I want to get put to sleep when my health is getting bad. Not live some prolonged, painful, no quality life where I am lonely and can't look after myself. No thanks.

I think we should keep the state pension (heck I want mine!). I just think we could increase it each year by say inflation for example and scrap the triple lock. I don't think it will save that much money to be honest but I suppose every little helps.

While it is true that the government does not give a flying g fuck for the little people who keep the lights on, they will give a fuck when those little people start forming mobs and rioting all the time. In London and all our major cities every day continuously. Or just as shoplifting goes through the roof and law and order breaks down totally.

This love for the Victorian period just after Enclosure when poor people had been forcibly deprived of all their means of living and thus could be forced into factories on 14 hour days etc is ill placed, and not realistic when you are referring to removing benefits that a poorer economy could achieve within living memory. That I think is the point pps were trying to get to when they said lack of healthcare is not socially sustainable, or is certainly what I would say anyway. The Victorian period was actually itself very short and unique within human history as new energy sources became available. It was not sustainable for ordinary people. And for all that politicians don’t care, they’ll notice when the bottom of the social period collapses. They already are.

One reason for the NHS and education existing was because they could not form a big enough army due to the unhealthiness of the general populace. Lack of adherence to law is already hav ing a bigger effect. We work harder today than previously in human history and there HAS to be some recompense for that.

Of course you should express your views. I like to hear what others think. You have made me chuckle though at the thought that someone in power might care what users of mumsnet think. If only. Most of them are minted themselves and can easily afford private healthcare.

Anxiety and depression never used to be seen as an excuse to do nothing.

Sure, because people offed themselves or died on the streets or whatever. I know people like you think that these are excuses or that you get it because you felt sad for a bit in 1983 but these can be absolutely fucking awful debilitating illnesses that a person who really suffers from them would do anything to be free of. They may be USED as excuses by some, but for those of us who actually have them, calling them an "excuse to do nothing" is a truly shitty traducement. Not that I expect you'll care.

Well not really. A person with no income can't be taxed. A person with no income will still need to pay if they want the healthcare under a co-pay system. If they can't pay then presumably they don't get the care.

However America has much better growth than us. I think it is short sighted to not look at what other countries might be getting right that we could try and copy.

That’s precisely why it’s ill conceived nonsense. Meanwhile increasing the cost for those of us who can pay has exactly the same effect whether we call it tax, copayment or buy better health.

Will they really care though. Do you remember the miners strikes. The mines still got closed in the end. Most people in power are so rich that they will be protected from the fall of society. The can just charter their private plan and bugger off somewhere else. The rest of us will fight over the remaining food/our lives. Okay I am exaggerating (I hope) but you get the drift.

How do you think the rich get that way? There is no wealth without a workforce healthy enough to be exploited.

No you might be right. At which point they won’t have a society to do the work for them and will have to do it themselves. Most try to avoid this.

Look I know what real depression is. I had a violent and chaotic childhood. I've been on AD's for over 12 years now. Last year they increased my prozac to 60mg per day and warned me not to take anymore as that is the max dose. I'm also assessed by NHS as having CPTSD and getting schema therapy (don't know when been waiting over a year so far in the queue). So I really do know what it's all about.

I still say the AD's do work and nobody should be out of work because of depression. I never was and I have had it all my life.

except the country can't tax us anymore due to the laffer curve. Higher tax equals lower income. It is agreed that the tax in the UK is as high as it can go. So that is a dead end unless we have growth in the economy.

Goodness wealth comes from lots of places. Many politicians will have been born into money. Many have gotten rich from the inflation of house prices and having lots of btl's. Lots will be making it on the stock market/investments/gold etc

Literally all you have to do to 'make money' is to have a pile of it in the first place. For example I got an inheritance when my parents died. Wacked it in a high interest account and now get hundreds of pound in interest each month. I do pay into a pension too but because I am retired I can only contribute a small amount each year £2880 to get the £720 tax relief. I am not investing into stocks and shares at the moment as I think it's vastly overvalued and due an AI stock collapse.

The majority of politicians are so rich that they need never work again. They will all have property, investments and fingers in all sorts of pies. I honestly don't think they would care. They certainly wouldn't have to do the work themselves. They would just move to Dubai (perhaps not now cos of the Iran war) or somewhere they fancy and live out their comfortable lives.

And we can’t grow the economy without a healthy workforce. Your investments would be worthless without healthy workers in the companies you’ve invested in making a profit. It’s absolute nonsense to say tax is as high as it can go. It was 45% basic rate in 1948 and 33% when I started work. Tax aversion is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I just don't think the extra funds should come from general taxation. Not that difficult to understand my position surely?? Our tax system is crippling the country and simply raising taxes will make things worse, as Reeves has discovered.

How far does hundreds of pounds of interest each month go these days? Not that far imv
And making money from increase in house value - so say you get 200K on your house increase - how far will that go on care home fees of 1-2K per week, surely you'll spend it on the next property you buy and for everyone making a lot some poor soul is scraping by to cover the mortgage
And MPs get ?72,000 a year so that's what after tax 45,000 - they get perks like accommodation allowance but you aren't going to buy a yacht any time soon
The rich in the view of many of the population is anyone earning over 50,000 - that's not rich enough to tax further

The rich become rich by risking their money in investments or new businesses, for which they should rightfully expect a return - higher the risk the higher the return and vice versa.

Can you explain how workers are exploited when they voluntarily contribute their labour in return for wages. If it was involuntary or with no wage then it would be called slavery which is kinda illegal and frowned upon.

If a business goes bust then the owner or the investors lose their money and in the case of the owner their job. Whereas workers just lose their jobs.

If the business is a success then it's only fair that those who risked their money/ capital get rewarded for this.

What this thread shows is that the left would prefer everyone to be poorer but with less inequality rather than everyone to be richer but with more inequality.

Well said.

And how will anyone be better off if they have to make additional payments for their healthcare? The amount of tax we pay won’t go down, we’ll just be paying more when we’re ill. It makes no sense.