Is society becoming more hostile to children?

[MsFrumble]

Why does society feel like it’s becoming increasingly hostile to children? And why is voicing anti-child views or politics becoming more acceptable—or is it not, and there’s just a lot of online noise about it?

I’m not talking about choosing not to have children, that is obviously fine and good.
But there does seem to be a growing tendency to feel it is okay to openly describe children as at best an inconvenience and at worst a blight; to argue they should be excluded from public spaces unless they behave like adults or are tightly controlled; and to view children as “adults in training” rather than as distinct individuals with their own needs and rights.

Children are a highly vulnerable group, with no power and distinct rights in law—the right to play, education, protection, and so on. We were all once children, and unless you take a fairly nihilistic view, most people would agree that how we treat them matters because they are the future.

The material reality / politics around supporting kids is also quite grim: exorbitant nursery fees, schools under pressure, health visiting and early years support underfunded, maternity care in crisis, a lack of youth services like centres for teenagers etc etc

So why does society feel so anti kid?

I'm in a deprived part of the UK and can confirm that children are no longer setting fire to sofas, pushing fireworks up cats bums or smoking cigarettes at primary school.

Children are better behaved here more than ever. Thankfully. When I was a kid in the 90s it was awful, bullying was the norm, violence was the norm, but then we didn't really have parents who did any parenting.

I don't think the UK is anti children. But I have noticed a new form of disenchantment (I can't think of another word, sorry!) with larger families (two parents with 3 or more children)

For example, my friend was told her family of five couldn't be accommodated in a local cafe. Her children are well behaved.

In fact I know people in their 60s who brag about how naughty they were as kids. Anyone claiming that children were perfectly behaved back in their day must be very old!

Or have a selective memory…

No, the British school system is becoming too cold hearted to children with generally sweeter, calmer and softer characters

I moved to a South European country a few years ago, and the attitude is so different. It took me a year to unclench and stop telling my children not to kick their football in the public courtyard.

Right now, in our rather posh block of flats, we have a gang of small kids running riot and, by British standards, pretty much behaving appallingly, and no one bats an eyelid unless they really cross the line. By the time they hit around 11, they seem to mature, grow up and become polite members of society - but no one expects perfection from 5-year-olds and this seems to work, judging by how nice the local teens are.

Society is becoming more hostile towards families and people with children, children themselves have arguably never been more protected. As another poster mentioned above, people who work with children are closely vetted and monitored, and parents can no longer abuse their children and dismiss it as “discipline.”

Normal sane children are naturally noisy. They run, laugh, tumble over, bang drums, shout, scream.

That’s absolutely fine, if it’s in a children’s playground, or a park away from other people. Not in a restaurant or right beside people sitting in a park. It’s the ‘time and place’ aspect, which is where things fall down now as parents seem to think that’s acceptable wherever/whenever.

Can also say that if myself, siblings, or indeed anyone child I knew had of acted like this in public when I was a child, it would not have been acceptable, and we would have been shown this in record time.

yeah. I feel this at a very fundemental level because SIL really doesn't seem to understand any basics of appropriate/inappropriate behaviour with her DC. So, for example, she gets very upset when they go on holiday and (on more than one occassion) another family will approach her and tell her ot please keep her children from forcing themselves into their family activities or to stop them from following their teenagers around. She feels that her children are friendly and outgoig and they're young so those teenagers should be "nice" to them. And, to be fair to her, she practics what she preaches - if her DC meet a new little friend in a situation like this, she'll quite happily let that kid hang out with them for their entire holiday if that's what her DC and the kid want. But as a result, she has no idea that actally, not everyone wants a random kid tagging along with them all the time. And one of her children is very demanding so tends to dominate conversations and games and she's just oblivious to it.

If you go back through history. The whole idea of "family" and "parenting" is only about 100 years or so old.

Children younger than 9 had jobs in factories in the 1800s! Can you imagine having to push this through parliament so it became illegal?

The first "parenting and child behaviour" book came out in the 1920s. 🤣

So given the fact that modern day parenting is only 100 years old - we're doing just fine!

On this, I actually agree. I would think a public courtyard in a block of flats is a perfectly appropriate place for children to run riot, kick balls etc. I get equally annoyed when people are complaining because children are playing in their own homes and gardens.

Actually, this reminded me of something else I think happens in Europe that doesn't happen enough here - children are encouraged ot be independent really early which I think is great. My neices and nephews in Europe were walkign to school alone from age 6 or 7!

Whereas here, people won't leave their children at home for 20 minutes to go to the shop so they're always being dragged around and supervised. And they don't get the opportnity to to learn how to behave at age appropriate stages. I often think the best thing I did for my children was let them out and about relatively early - when they were still "Scared" of other adults which encouraged them to embed good behaviour!

I think it's because fewer people are having kids, they're having smaller families, and they're also having them later in life, so people have less exposure to children as older siblings, uncles, aunts, and parents.

So people are less comfortable and tolerant in regards to managing and accommodating children, as they're not used to being around children, and children feel like inconvenient anomalies. Personally, I think it's an incredibly short-sighted, immature attitude to be contemptuous or disparaging of children...but at the same time, I can sympathise with the fact that many children seem much more badly behaved and disruptive than they used to be.

Conversely, people also seem to be treating pets more like children instead, and pets are being much more coddled and tolerated in spaces where they never used to be allowed.

I feel as though many childfree people seem to see children as something less than human, who have less right to take up space in society than they do. It's a little disturbing.

I allow my kids to yell and run in the park and in our garden, and in kid friendly spaces like museums with kid accessible bits or the beach yes. Anywhere that is open to kids, I let them be kids, within reason. Anywhere, that is obviously not aimed at little kids, a quiet art gallery say or a hotel with no pool and no kids menu, I either won’t take them, or will take them very quickly and having made provisions to be able to whisk them away if needed.

The other day my kid wove around people a few times on his bike in the park, and nearly crashed into a picnic, I was about 30 seconds behind him and I said sorry, he’s just learning. They were okay with it. He’s, four, he’s learning, the park is for all of us. We don’t have a garden big enough to learn how to control a bike at speed in. Where else is he supposed to do it?

I take them to restaurants and cafes that are open to kids. I chat to them / bring drawing materials while we wait, but yes I let them get a bit bored and fidgety, and accept that they may talk a bit loudly about how exciting it is to be allowed pizza, or get a bit mardy when it takes time or want to get up and look at the paintings on the wall. Maybe this is annoying, if someone wants a really quiet lunch, but they are kids, in a place that welcomes kids, and learning how to eat out, and chose your own food, and join in family outings and be bored in public without having a phone stuck in your face is part of life.

I take them to the supermarket and on busses because I have to buy food and get them places. If they whine about being bored, or get upset because they aren’t being allowed chocolate, or are tired, or let out a few yelps because it is their first time going to the science museum and it is just really really exciting, then so be it. I’ll calm them down if I can, if not I will let them experience the boredom or frustration because how else are they supposed to learn to deal with it?

Occasionally they will have a tantrum, or get really upset in public. They might be ill, or tired, or they might just be really upset because the bus was late. Do I yell at them or make threats or shove my phone in their faces - no. Because I don’t want them to be scared of me, or learn that the only way to handle big emotions is to numb yourself with a screen. When I probably would do is, pick them up (if I could, my eldest is 4 but it would still be normal for a 7 year old to have the odd tantrum, and they might be too heavy or strong) try to find a quiet place, if I could (not many public benches or quiet places around) and hold them and soothe them till they calmed down. Then later, when they were calm, I’d have a chat about what made them feel that way, and talk about other ways to behave. But realistically, a 2, 3, 4, 5 year old can’t make a rational choice to not be upset, and now show that upset. And there isn’t always a convenient place to
whisk them away too.

They are citizens of this country, as are you and I. They have a right to be happy, sad, calm, angry, etc. and to exist in society. For the most part they are calm, if a bit chatty and wriggly but until they are old enough to be in full control of their emotions (7-8-9ish) I’m not going to hide them away, in case one of their occasional moments of being tired or sad, makes someone else feel disturbed.

I guess my position is, that - I feel like society in general needs to be accepting of and accessible to everyone, including kids who are going to act like kids as well as older people who need to walk slower, talk louder etc, people with disabilities, people who need guide dogs, people who are deaf / blind.

I’ve no objection to there being places that are not advisable for kids - quiet museums, wine bars, festivals, adults sections of libraries etc. and equally if people want to choose an adult only restaurant or campsite, or eat at 9 instead of 5pm, because they cannot handle the possible disruption of kids, that is fine. I’ve no issue with that, so long as the majority of society is accessible to the majority of people

The rise of shit gentle parenting. Kids behave appallingly and are not reprimanded or kept in check and people are getting less tolerant of it because it is everywhere. I hate other people's ill mannered kids. I heard a 10 ish year old call his mother a cunt yesterday. I'd wallop my kids into next week for that. Not that they would, because they were actually parented.

Yes and no. Society is both becoming more critical and also less considerate towards others. I love to see children having fun, but some are definitely becoming less well behaved. I don't expect 'adult' behaviour, but neither will I tolerate children who jump on me or screech in my ears. Dog owners are becoming similar; you may love your Fido, but don't expect me to be happy when it jumps up on my table while I'm eating. It's the lack of consideration or the assumption that their needs are much more important than mine.

This just hasn't been my experience in real life, thankfully. Our neighbours are kind to her - I'm sure they get some extra noise in their gardens from having a toddler nextdoor (though we try to teach her to be considerate of others when she plays). Shop assistants talk about how big she is now and remember us coming in as a baby. People in the supermarket or on bus smile and wave at her. People are sympathetic if we're out and she's crying. I've never had a negative reaction in a cafe or a restaurant (though it's rare for us to go to restaurants while she is still quite young), people either do their own thing or wave at her if she is looking around. And I'm really happy that's the case, because she is learning to be sociable and kind and interested.

Of course, maybe there are lots of people who don't like children and don't say anything - but I am yet to experience any hostility in real life.

Agree with the fact that children are less likely to be taught good manners than in past years.
There is less tolerance for society paying more and more of the child care costs.

Children need to have one parent who is prepared to sacrifice to be their primary care giver in the early years. More attention to training good citizens. One to one ratio parental love, discipline and involvement is lacking. Lazy parents create rude children who are hard to tolerate.

It is. It’s horrible. So much anxiety being channelled as egoism and selfishness.

I would move abroad if I could, but have an unadventurous DH and 2 children relatively happy in school.

If you do these things that you state you do i.e. let kids be kids in kid areas and not just allow them to be feral and unruly, then that's great, but you have to accept that many don't do what you do and the few are always stereotyped along with the many. This is true for all stereotypes.

Additionally, I don't think kids need freedom, coddled and 'equality'.

So, I don't agree with that view because the insinuation is that we all have to forego our freedoms in favour of others. That's not freedom for all or equality.

I wouldn't expect children to be silent in a play area for children. I expect children to behave in a certain way in the supermarket, eateries or the library. Even at another persons home. Parents who refuse to control their children aren't allowed at my home for reasons of safety and my own peace.

I believe in the hierarchy of age. It is our responsibility to teach our children. It is the elder generations responsibility to teach their adult children how to teach their children.

The above view is not necessarily compatible with the view of 'equal citizenry' as it pertains to freedom of behaviour and emotion if that means kids are being taught to just act and say what they please regardless of the environment.

IMO ,children need to be taught the value of appropriate behaviour and emotional restraint and we do them a disservice by trying to equate them to adults or befriend them and then act all surprised when society has a different view.

My view is just my view. I'm sure others will agree or disagree. Hopefully, taking it all into consideration, will help you understand what it is you seek to understand. ❤

I grew up in seaside 1990s Devon and it was standard for parents to call their children cunts. It was also standard for children to call their parents cunts.

and now those children are parents themselves.

I am grateful I escaped but many families are still in the same street / housing estate.

Good for you. That's one example where you intervened and it went well. I have one too: I asked a couple of children (probably aged around 10) to stop chasing and trying to grab some adult geese in the local park, as they were oblivious to the fact that they were preventing them looking after their goslings. The children didn't say anything but did stop and walked away.

However, I have witnessed and experienced many instances of the behaviours I mentioned, none of which you've acknolwedged. Perhaps you live in a nicer area, I don't know. Admittedly seeing biting occur is rare but kicking and spitting are becoming more common, while the other behaviours are unfortunately commonplace.

As to the police, yes, it happened to a neighbour. He told a couple of boys to stop kicking down a fence at the end of the road. They did but he got a load of verbal abuse and they followed him back to his house before going away. They must've reported him to someone because the next day he got a police visit. No arrest or charges resulted but they were involved.

Satisfied? It's odd that you should assume I got some info from Facebook, which I don't use, or a newspaper. If you must know, I get most of my news from the BBC. Most of us do experience the world first-hand, just as I assume you do. Maybe our experiences just vary or we infer different things from them.

Children were totally and utterly thrown under the bus in 2020, with lockdown, with their education disrupted, just about every activity snatched away, and a complete lack of acknowledgement that “only a few months” was a large proportion of a young child’s formative years. Society and government showed exactly how little they care about children.

I think some parents care less about the impact their child/ children's behaviour will have on other people but I think this is true of some adults generally eg playing music without headphones, thinking it is ok to let your dog jump up at people.

I live near a Sixth Form college.
A few weeks ago, there was a right racket outside our houses.

A group of lads, about 17, had decided our quiet (i.e no traffic and straight) lane was the perfect place for a sprinting competition over their lunch break. They looked to be having so much fun and just being kids. Even if they were noisy!

My elderly neighbpur said afterwards she enjoyed seeing them as well.

Tantrums... they happen. The majority of children grow out of them. My extremely angelic teenager (not sarcasm) did once climb the shelves in the supermarket in protest over something as a toddler (much to the embarrassment of DH and FIL who she was with). But shes grown up ok. Most children do if appropriate boundaries are exhibited.

Its a minority of children/parents causing issues.

I dont judge small kids having tantrums, most young kids do at some time or other
( although i dont agree that all "sane" kids are naturally noisy and boisterous, and that shouting and running about is normal behaviour. It can be but depends on personality and nature. I was pretty quiet as a kid and so are my own DC)

...but frequently ive seen in the supermarket , Mum + Dad + toddler + small baby, with a trolley of shopping.....toddler is usually having a tantrum and frustrated because they are bored....and i wonder what made them think a whole family shopping trip was a good idea! When there are alternatives (online shopping, 1 parent going alone etc)

I did a (running) race last year that used a path through a (very large) park. There was a very young child wobbling about learning to ride a bike, in the path of hundreds of runners. With parents looking on. Of course he has as much right to be in the park as runners but it seemed insane to use that particular path when the risk of him or someone else getting hurt was pretty high, and there was a massive amount of other available space.

Additionally... my children wete brought up in 3 different countries... a Southern Europe, child loving one, a Western European one where independence and responsibility was expected, and the UK. British parents would be horrified at some of the things in the other two countries from both a strictness and laxness perspective!