Is society becoming more hostile to children?

[MsFrumble]

Why does society feel like it’s becoming increasingly hostile to children? And why is voicing anti-child views or politics becoming more acceptable—or is it not, and there’s just a lot of online noise about it?

I’m not talking about choosing not to have children, that is obviously fine and good.
But there does seem to be a growing tendency to feel it is okay to openly describe children as at best an inconvenience and at worst a blight; to argue they should be excluded from public spaces unless they behave like adults or are tightly controlled; and to view children as “adults in training” rather than as distinct individuals with their own needs and rights.

Children are a highly vulnerable group, with no power and distinct rights in law—the right to play, education, protection, and so on. We were all once children, and unless you take a fairly nihilistic view, most people would agree that how we treat them matters because they are the future.

The material reality / politics around supporting kids is also quite grim: exorbitant nursery fees, schools under pressure, health visiting and early years support underfunded, maternity care in crisis, a lack of youth services like centres for teenagers etc etc

So why does society feel so anti kid?

Fair enough, I actually was talking about kids running “around” pitches - aka not through them. But if kids were blundering through your tent knocking over your stuff, obviously that needs attending too.

Screaming also is not OK. Baffles me that so many parents allow it.

I'm not anti-kid.

I'm definitely anti-parent who thinks that their precious children trump the rights of all others. I don't want to hear screaming, yelling or crying and parents begging, sweetly and pathetically, for them to stop if they can be bothered at all. Most of the time, the parents just pretend like this nonsense isn't happening while everyone around has to tolerate noise pollution by a spoiled brat who is spoiled, through no fault of their own, due to the parents lack of attention or discipline skill.

I don't appreciate being pushed off a walking path, into traffic, in favour of a pram the size of a bus. I don't appreciate being bumped into or asked to move in favour of a pram the size of a bus when I'm sat for coffee or browsing clothing.

I went to a shop the other day and a grown man was gallivanting through the aisles with his kid, screaming at the top of his lungs, running between people and aisles and playing hide-and-go-seek when I was trying to buy toothpaste.

That is absolutely ridiculous behaviour. It's not the first time I've witnessed something so inane.

It's not wrong for people to expect manners of children and expect their parents to be setting the example for appropriate behaviour. When this falls short, yes; people like me start to have a dim view of children because we just know what our experience is likely to be when they and their 'parents' are around.

I raised my own DC. They never acted this way. I wouldn't allow it and they knew it. They are respectful members of society who don't seek to draw attention from others, either via themselves, or through their children.

So, to answer the question, I am not hostile to children. They are our future.

But, the parents (who were seemingly let down by their own or watch too much TikTok), are ruining my view of children due to their lack of parenting skills.

And, I am not going to justify my thoughts to anyone. These are my thoughts. If they bother anyone, think about why that might be and just understand that my thoughts are echoed by many who just won't say unless asked, and we have been asked by OP!

I think the sentiment about the lack of consistent parenting is true. Recent generations are the first to go to childcare en masse. The first to have grandparents en masse looking after children and raising them part of the week. Often trying to stick to mum and dads requirements but invariably I expect falling back on their own methods.
Result. Very confusing, few consistent boundaries.

So why does society feel so anti kid?

I don’t think it is. I think at present there is just a backlash to the awful permissive parenting that seems rampant. Children being brought up with a staggering level of entitlement and bad behaviour, cheered on by parents who are so pleased little Penelope is ‘spirited and knows her own mind’ (code for utter shit who is badly behaved). People are just sick of it now it’s gone from the odd child to en masse.

I've only ever heard parents saying it about their own kids. I don't like it because I don't think it's nice for the kids to hear it but I suppose online the kids aren't affected.

@JustWhatever out of curiosity, what do you feel is causing what you describe?

You say that the parents who are letting their kids behave badly now were let down by their own parents. But their own parents were presumably raising them at a similar time to when you were raising your kids?

So it can’t be a generational thing.

So it can’t be a generational thing.

I do think it's partly fashion - the persissive parenting is often advocated by books and other parents - and partenting styles do tend to go in waves.

I also think many parents do feel under more pressue and have less experience of children generally and have more worries about doing the worng thing so do rely more on said books and pervaling culture. Consistant parenting as PP mentioned also in there - more childcare and DGP care all play a role as well.

In my experience it was WAY WAY more common when I was a little kid (80’s, 90’s) for kids to be looked after part of the time by their grandparents, than it is now.

In the past grandparents were much more likely to be younger (everyone had kids earlier), more likely to be retired (earlier retirement) and to be in a marriage where only one of a couple worked (mortgages less expensive etc). You were also much more likely to be living in the same place as your grandparents than now when going away to uni and to find work is very common.

Most of my friends were at Granny and Grandad’s a couple of times a week growing up. Not they are grown ups, most are now balancing looking after kids, and ageing parents, or trying to hold down jobs and pay for childcare in big cities where there is work to be had

We are not all clones within our generation.

My SILs are my age and raise their children very differently to the way I do, so in that way, it isn't just generational. One is highly strict and one is blasé.

So, I'd agree with the statement that it's not a 'generational thing' but on a different basis.

There could be a plethora of reasons. Bad family dynamic, dysfunction, addiction i.e. drugs, alcohol, phones.

Wanting to be the kids friend instead of the parent.

Reliance on strangers for parenting advice, due to reasons above and reliance on influences such as social media where nouveau, or edgy, parenting becomes trendy because it goes against tradition or there are lack of other, dependable resources.

Those are just guesses from the reasons I've experienced amongst friends and families. I can't offer a generalisation for the overall population.

Yes, we’re not all clones in my generation or my kids generation either. But we do seem to often get tarred with the same brush, when it comes to views about how kids are being raised and are behaving these days.

Do you allow your kids to scream, run and act inappropriately in public settings?

Do you see this behaviour as inappropriate? Do you feel judged when someone points out inappropriate behaviour because your view is that children can never be inappropriate?

So many variables.

I don't know how to stop the stereotyping. I think that happens with everything.

Good question OP. A couple of issues I’ve been thinking about come to mind.

On one hand there is some terrible, selfish parenting out there. People who will let their child scream or run wild in inappropriate places (like a restaurant or sports event) when they really should take them out so other people aren’t disturbed by it.

On the other hand, I think the increase in the number of child-free people means that there are more people who are intolerant of children and have unrealistic expectations of them. For example, they see a child’s tantrum in the supermarket as poor parenting, rather than the reality that children throw tantrums and you can’t magically make them stop. I’ve also noticed it’s socially acceptable to talk endlessly about pets and share photos of them at work but people are not tolerant of anybody who briefly talks about their kids. Obviously it depends where you work and how many in your team have children or not.

Agree with this
There is a difference between asking a lid to be like an adult and allowing them to be feral

“Normal sane children are naturally noisy. They run, laugh, tumble over, bang drums, shout, scream.”

I agree, kids just are like this - always have been, it’s how humans are and accepting it and accommodating it within society is essential. We’re learning about consequences of raising kids with no outdoor space, stressed overworked parents, and in front of screens. And if we don’t make space for kids to play, climb, run, shout, get messy etc. and accept that this is normal and not something to correct or pacify, it’s only going to get harder

Funny, if anything, I think that things are often more child centric now. And children are allowd to behave a lot more badly than i was, and the concept of a "village" has largely disappeared. Some teenagers were being very rough and unpleasant to my (at the time) 9 year old and his friend in the park. I politely asked them to please stop. I got a mouthful from the leader telling me I couldn't talk to her and she now feels unsafe and she was going to tell her mum on me.

Then there are the endless threads on here where people are outraged because their children are expected to give up their seat on a train, or someone asked them to keep their child a bit more quiet on a bus.

Or the parents who are outraged about what supposedly happened at school because their child "would never lie".

When we were growing up - we didn't go to fancy restaurants. Becuase my parents knew we weren't able to cope with the expectations. Instread, if we were eating out, they took us to the appropriate family friendly venue where there was somewhere for us to play, colouring in provided etc. And yet we've all sat in "proper" restauratns now at 8pm while children are running around and their parents watch indulgently.

Don't even get me started on basic table manners. Almost none of my children's friends have basic table manners and I feel like as a result I'm fighting a constant losing battle to get THEM not to eat like their friends. And the older they get, the less willing I am to take their friends out or have them eat at my house as a result. Ditto please and thank you. One parent told me she didn't feel it was necessary for children to say please and thank you as they're so young. Which meant I once sat with a friend in a restaurant with her teenage children who didn't say a single please or thank you to the waitress over the entire meal. I was mortified.

ETA that I have no issue with "normal" kid noise. Kids screaming in the garden in the weekend? Go for it. Running around at the park - brilliant. Noisy in the cinema watching a kids movie? No problem. It's the places that children shouldn't be in the first place and the fact that basic expectations for children seem to be so low now that I find endlessly frustrating.

I have never seen this sort of behaviour in my life..a kid climbing the shelves in the supermarket would be immediately told to get down or the parent told to get the kid down by staff. You’re either massively exaggerating or this was truly a one off incident, not something that’s a regular occurrence. I don’t know where you live but I live in a working class suburb of a large northern city and this sort of thing just does not happen. Yes toddlers and little kids scream and have tantrums. It’s developmentally normal. It’s always happened and our own kids (and ourselves when we were kids) have all had the odd public meltdown. It happens everywhere, unfortunately sometimes out in public, but it’s no one’s fault and it’s not always something a parent can do anything about in the moment. I don’t see kids running wild everywhere while their parents don’t give a shit, I’m hardly ever bothered or annoyed by children, apart from in the middle of a soft play maybe, but that’s to be expected - it’s specifically for them. And I’m rarely bothered by them not because I’m especially tolerant or really like kids or anything, it’s cos I just don’t think the behaviour you describe is really what’s going on

I think society is becoming more hostile to children, I agree with the OP. I think it is because of too many mothers and fathers not parenting, in some cases because they are absent.

This.

I disagree that children are naughtier than in the past, although granted I’m not that old (2001).

I remember when I was a kid bullying was rife, kids setting fire to things like bins and throwing rocks at cars and buses. I still live in the same town and the demographic hasn’t changed people have just grown up and had kids of their own. And these kids are a lot calmer than their parents were. I’m a teaching assistant and also have school age kids of my own so very in touch with what’s going on.

There’s also definitely a strange thing these days where a lot of parents feel like they should be able to live the exact same life and to go to the same places they did before they had kids and just bring the kids along even if it’s not suitable/wanted and everyone else just needs to suck it up. I once went to the cinema to watch a thriller/horror film (mild horror - a 12a) on a Saturday night at 9pm and noticed the people behind me had a baby around a year old. The baby was clearly terrified as the film started with a car accident with lots of banging and screaming etc. So now the baby is screaming as well. We left after 10 mins and asked for a refund.

I also remember another film during the day (but not a kids film and also not a mother and baby screening) a woman had a very small baby that was screaming constantly and she was trying to breastfeed it but it just kept screaming. After a good 10 mins some people started shouting at her to leave. She started accusing them of discriminating against her breastfeeding and she was entitled to breastfeed in the cinema. Eventually staff were called in and they ended up pausing the film as different people were all demanding other people were thrown out. At that point we left and got a refund. Again.

Both of those situations could have been avoided if the parents had dealt with the situation swiftly and not allowed the children to ruin the experience for everyone else.

I don't think society is becoming more anti children. It might becoming more anti badly behaved children. In fact i think it is often the parents people are annoyed at and their supposed parenting skills. Other peoples' children are really not that interesting.

Sorry, I’ve only read the first page of this thread, but I think you are being wilfullly obtuse about this. Noise, joy and boisterousness is wonderful - in an appropriate setting. Children need to learn how to modify their behaviour according to their situation, how to use indoor voices, how to sit quietly, how not to interrupt because that is the way society operates. Adults seem to find it increasingly difficult to teach their children these things and no, it’s not the children’s fault but equally, that doesn’t make a theatre trip enjoyable when you have to sit next to some one else’s restless, talkative, sweet-eating child. I think it’s parents being unfair to their children as poised to society being unfair to children.

I went to a shop the other day and a grown man was gallivanting through the aisles with his kid, screaming at the top of his lungs, running between people and aisles and playing hide-and-go-seek when I was trying to buy toothpaste.

@JustWhatever It wasn't in Morrisons by any chance? I had the exact same occurrence in there very recently and you could almost feel the whole shop muttering "fucks sake" at the adult man, who was all puffed up with pride at being such a fun parent.

Oh for goodness sake, some of the pp’s on here tarring all parents must be bad parents because they let their children have fun and run around. They are not adults, they are children. Of course they are not supposed to sit quietly in a bloody corner so you can enjoy your peaceful coffee. They have every single right to be in public places and be in society. Not to mention that if a child is scared, behaving and not saying much, there is research to indicate (in some cases!) that the child could be in danger but no you all go on expecting all children to behave like adults.

OP you are so right and I agree with your 100%. It’s such a shame how most of these anti children comments appear to have forgotten what they were like as children. Probably all sat quietly in the corner not allowed to speak so they wouldn’t ruin someone else’s lunch I suspect 🙄

The thing that angers me is the comments about parents dragging them out to inconvenience you all. Really? You think parents have nothing better to do than to think let’s drag little Timmy out to the shops so we can annoy all these people. Of course there are a million reasons why the children are with their parents, they are a family. It would be absurd to leave them at home. I despair! I really do! What a sad society we are in.