Is society becoming more hostile to children?

[MsFrumble]

Why does society feel like it’s becoming increasingly hostile to children? And why is voicing anti-child views or politics becoming more acceptable—or is it not, and there’s just a lot of online noise about it?

I’m not talking about choosing not to have children, that is obviously fine and good.
But there does seem to be a growing tendency to feel it is okay to openly describe children as at best an inconvenience and at worst a blight; to argue they should be excluded from public spaces unless they behave like adults or are tightly controlled; and to view children as “adults in training” rather than as distinct individuals with their own needs and rights.

Children are a highly vulnerable group, with no power and distinct rights in law—the right to play, education, protection, and so on. We were all once children, and unless you take a fairly nihilistic view, most people would agree that how we treat them matters because they are the future.

The material reality / politics around supporting kids is also quite grim: exorbitant nursery fees, schools under pressure, health visiting and early years support underfunded, maternity care in crisis, a lack of youth services like centres for teenagers etc etc

So why does society feel so anti kid?

I do get cross when people say poverty is the reason for poor behaviour. No it isn’t. Poor behaviour can come from rich people, middle class people and poor people. How you are raised is what matters.
Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s many people had next to nothing. But knew how to behave in a cafe or at a picnic etc.
There was little in way of support for parents at all. Barely anything compared to today.
I don’t think our society is hostile to children.

I have a toddler and haven’t experienced any hostility. Even when we’ve been on planes or restaurants. I think if people see you genuinely trying to entertain your child or removing them when you can they sympathise with your plight. I’ve had lots of great interactions with people out and about with my daughter. While we’re in the toddler phase we tend to stick to child friendly places and don’t have loud toys blasting in quiet restaurants etc I think if you just respect others then most are happy for children to be out and about.

Well as a kid who was taken on at least three camping holidays a year, for 15plus years, my understanding was that you stick the sharp bit of the tent peg into the ground.

Also that you follow good campsite protocol and if you are cooking or barbecuing on any campsite, especially a child friendly one and that you, as an adult, NEVER NEVER leave your trangia or barbecue unattended.

Sounds like there are a few adults posting on here who need a lesson on proper campsite behaviour, if they think camping in a way that will endanger fellow campers, kids or adults, is acceptable.

And if you add in the poison of social media influence, with celebrities tasting their pregnancies like they are the second coming, it must feed down to some people thinking their child isn’t just an average human in a world full of average people, they are completely special. Their child is special and they all deserve special treatment.

You mean ettiquette like not allowing your children to run around other peoples pitches and kick footballs arlund outside of the play area?

And quiet times?

We went camping with our kids and were aware that if our children went running round tents and an accident happened it wouldn’t be the adult campers fault

There is usually plenty of space rent free at family friendly campsites for this reason.

I think we have gone backwards with things like pushing children to attend school and childcare when unwell, especially if contagious. Meanwhile children are left with the consequences longer term as more and more families face the impacts of constant enforced infection with results like long covid.

This. We've reached very high levels of piss-poor parenting and, naturally, people have a limit for what they are happy to tolerate.

Yes.

This is partly because some parents do not have any interest in or are too ignorant or selfish or lazy to have any consideration for the rights of others / the social contract.

I thought it was my job from their birth to teach my children that although they were the most important thing to me, they weren’t the most important thing to others and that other people’s rights and preferences sometimes take priority.

By way of example, my kids were told no, you can’t scream and run around a public place like a restaurant. Other people don’t want to hear you. No you can’t have that seat because grandma/ older person needs it more. No you can’t ride your scooter/ push the supermarket trolley. It’s not a place for mucking about. Etc etc. They were also taught to be polite!

We used to get this at work when customers brought several kids in with them to an appointment. Kids get bored, parents just keep shouting 'pack it in'. Kids carry on, no one can hear themselves think, kid falls over, parent tells staff they are at fault. We've had toilets blocked /flooded because the little dears are chucking stuff down them. I mean it's not a playground.

There have been times when I've had no choice but to take kids somewhere I'd prefer not to -- including hospital - it's that or not go and not going was worse option. However I planned for it - long walk playground snacks toys magazines books food drink clear expecations about behavior - and they were well behaved even when the waits were ridiculous and they were very young.

Recently in hospital saw my sister - who had childcare options nephew just didn't want them - letting nephew roll all over the floor in a busy hosiptal corridor and be loud to get attention when staff were trying to relay information.

I coudn't understand it - there was always a reason which seem to be saying no to nephew wasn't an option. I don't think it's rose tinted glassed though yes my kids are older now late teens so about a decade between them - but I had more kids to mange with much less support. There was a full on martyr attiude when anyone did say anything no one knows how hard it is to parent these days .

OP, you've given examples of what you consider to be normal, boisterous behaviour and, generally speaking, I'd agree with you.

But that's not what people are usually complaining about. It's often children, and I mean young children, doing the following: pushing / kicking / screaming incessantly / biting / swearing / spitting. All in public places and often towards complete strangers who are just happen to be there. Perhaps you're just not aware of what goes on if you haven't witnessed this stuff yourself.

Do I blame the children? No. It's the fault of their useless and selfish parents and an overly indulgent society. It's not the job of the state to teach parents how to raise their children. That used to be passed on from generation to generation.

There was no golden age, but we didn't have the terrible, exteme behaviour from children decades ago that we do now. It's also a brave adult nowadays that tries to intervene and tell a child not to do something, even if it's dangerous. If they do, they're likely to get anything ranging from a mouthload of abuse to a knock on the door from the police for daring to reprimand the little darlings.

Running around your own tent on your own pitch - fine (you may trip over)
Running into other peoples tents - not ok!!
If kids are far enough away from the parents that they are not supervised then they are hopefully old enough to understand about road safety (hopefully cars will be travelling at very low speeds on a campsite but they will still be around) and respecting other peoples stuff

Weve been camping lots of times, my kids who are generally quiet and shy have made friends with other kids but its not ok to have random kids traipsing in and out of your tent without asking

Then I'm sure as a seasoned camper you KNOW the "protocol" around tents.

I wasn't talking about unattended cooking items.

I was talking about kids barging through other camps.

But you knew that 😘

P.S. No-one uses those pegs any more.. Quite a lot of the more modern ones would require a hospital visit if you trip and fall on them.

Modern housing isn't built with dcs in mind. Houses are too tightly packed together, gardens are stupidly tiny, flats have noisy uncarpeted floors.

Normal sane children are naturally noisy. They run, laugh, tumble over, bang drums, shout, scream. And adults seem so intolerant now. People complain about anything, if they can hear someone else's phone call or smell smoke or perfume, or moan about trees casting shade or dropping leaves or sap. I had a neighbour who complained and threatened me because he could hear my alarm clock - for 5 seconds, once a day. It's getting ridiculous.

I'd prefer the company of exuberant joyful noisy children to a quite a lot of whiny, sour-faced adults any day.

I’ve seen some really nasty sentiments about children recently. Mainly online as I really really don’t think anyone would call a child a “crotch goblin” to a parent’s face, I know if someone said that about my child we would be scrapping.

I think there’s also some valid critics of gentle parenting (which a lot of the time is just permissive parenting), but there is also a vocal minority of weirdos who hate children and want to go on about it online.

My kids are pretty well behaved in public, but they’re kids so obviously sometimes they just go absolutely rouge. I have had people stop and look, gawk a bit, and I’ve had some judgey looks, but when I spoke to my mum she said she had the same 40+ years ago. I do get it more when I’m out with all three kids on my own, and I definitely get a LOT of looks when I’m out with my kids and additional kids (often take my younger nieces and nephews with us so total 5/6 kids sometimes).

I’ve never got any agro irl, even when my kids have been throwing fits. I think that’s probably in part because people can see I’m dealing with it (I don’t just leave them to scream and go on my phone) and also probably in part because I look like a bitch 😭.

I’d never leave a lit BBQ or stove unattended near my tent because that would be utterly stupid. But I would leave a hot drink out while I nipped to the loo, sharp knives in the washing up bowl on the floor or a bottle of wine on the table while I went out for the day. If someone’s child got hurt due to that then it would be the parent’s fault. It’s my pitch that I paid for and other people shouldn’t be on it unless invited.

The campsite I was at had a play area and a huge field for ball games. There was no need for small children to be invading other people’s space.

I think it’s the complete opposite. Look at how accommodated ND kids are today - just look at the threads on here saying things like ‘my child got punched in the face at school but the kid who did it has ADHD so the head is doing nothing about it’. Look at the endless options for family entertainment- soft plays, petting farms, adventure parks everywhere. When I was growing up in the 90s I only ever remember going to one soft play and all the hype leading up to it was as though we were going to Disney world! Look at social services - you can’t put a foot wrong without having your child taken away. Look at the obsession with ‘gentle parenting’, the fact that smacking’s now illegal in Scotland and deeply frowned upon in the rest of the UK. Look at the endless opportunities for clubs, sports and hobbies available to kids today. Those opportunities were not there in the 90s. All the pastoral care and safeguarding in schools. Safeguarding wasn’t even a word when I was a kid! I think society is WAY more kid-friendly than it was in previous decades

@TreesAtSea I was in a playground last weekend, and saw three teenagers racing mountain bikes around the climbing frames. I went straight over, and said that looked like loads of fun, but there was a no bikes sign and they were making my younger kids nervous to use the climbing equipment. Would they mind doing it on the other bit of the park where bikes were allowed.

They apologised, said they hadn’t been thinking straight and went straight to the other side of the park. One of them came back a few minutes later with ice lollies for my kids to say sorry.

They are teenagers, they are literally programmed to seek out risk and make bad decisions, I had a polite word about sharing spaces. They got it. We all enjoyed the park together. No issue.

That’s my real world example. Now obviously individual case studies do not add up to a trend, but that’s what happened

Do you have actual examples of someone reprimanding a child, and getting “a knock on the door from the police for daring to reprimand the little darlings?” From you or someone you know, I mean, not from Facebook or a newspaper.

My friend calls her children crotch goblins, it's better than what my colleague calls hers but I do wonder if the kids will mind as they get older!

Because people are sick of everything being child centric, to the detriment of others.

Just because you don’t mind, doesn’t mean others don’t. However ‘developmentally appropriate’ the behaviour is, it’s still distressing or irritating for others to deal with.

I was in a supermarket a few months ago and some kid was pissing about and threw a ball, which hit me in the head, another time there was one climbing all over the shelves and the trolley and I tripped over him.

So until people at least try to supervise and correct their children, they can’t expect others to smile tolerantly and be happy about their behaviour.

i don’t go out unless I have to (without headphones) because the sound of the shouting, screaming and crying is physically painful for me (ND). It means I can’t fly either.

It would be nice to have some adult spaces that don’t cost a fortune.

This is part of the problem. Some people think it's normal. A lot - usually not the screaming child's parents - don't think it is.

Your child shouldn't be running around anyone else's tent much less screaming. It's all about being considerate to other people nearby.

Oh that reminds me of a camping holiday many years ago. We were eating a meal and some random child came up to the table and tried to take something off my plate. I was a gobby teen and I admit I told him to sod off go away

On the other hand …. yes I think people are generally more intolerant now too. Kids are going to get things wrong and misbehave on occasion however perfect the parenting. Cutting them - and parents trying to deal with it - a little slack would be nice.

Im thinking back to middle child’s seemingly ineradicable habit of stripping off to his underpants when ‘he was boiling’ wherever we were - in the supermarket etc 😬😬😬

I think it’s different when someone who has kids refers to their own kids as crotch goblins, DH sometimes calls ours the agents of Satan when they’re raising hell. It’s just when childfree people say it in demeaning ways it’s weird because it’s normally in the context of an unhinged rant about children doing children things. Sometimes they are badly behaved and I’ve read some accounts online of genuinely awful parenting but the vitriol is often aimed at the kids not the parent.

I am not anti children but I definitely have had enough of entitled, lazy parents who seem to be unable to teach their little ones manners and socialise them properly.

Every time I go on a train, a bus, in a coffee shop or a public space in general there are kids being allowed to make endless noise ( screaming, playing loud noise or music on tablets, running around andd disrupting staff) while parents just chat away or stare at their phone.

Then there are the parents who raise entitled, anti social teens who think their little darlings can't do no wrong.

Basically I think the parents who fail to raise their children with healthy boundaries and a respect for others are usually the issue, not the kids.