Is this neglect ?

[Rainbowfish1]

I'm really worried about my niece , age. 4, and don't know if I'm overthinking.
My brother got her mum pregnant after a short relationship, they split shortly after niece was born, he pays maintenance regularly via the CMS but apart from that has little day to day involvement, ( yes I know, DB' s a dick). He's 45 and nieces mum is 25.

-My niece is meant to go to nursery 1-6, 2 afternoons a week during term time, ( nursery stretches funding so this includes holidays). My friend works there and says she's always absent , misses at least one session a fortnight, often more, ( obviously nursery can't enforce attendance as nursery is not legally compulsory). When she is in , session starts at 13:00, but frequently not dropped till 13.30/ 13.45 etc.

• When she's not at nursery, ( and she rarely is !) they go nowhere. Literally nowhere. Nursery is Tuesday and Friday, and between they don't go out at all. Absolutely lovely shared garden and play area in their block of flats but don't go there. They don't leave the house for days on end. Sister in law is addicted to gaming etc and basically happy to stay in.
• Sister-in-law doesn't brush her teeth as "niece doesn't like it ", what 4 year old likes having their teeth brushed...
• Niece is only dressed on nursery days, ( where she does seem to dress her appropriately), she stays in her PJs for days on end otherwise. Whenever I visit on a non nursery day , niece is in her pyjamas, even at 2/3pm. Sister-in-law says what's the point in dressing niece if they are not going out.
• Sister in law is very overweight, basically live off take aways each night, ( only healthy meal she gets is the dinner 2 x a week at nursery).
• The flat is filthy. Five cats in a two bed flat , stinks of cat urine whenever I go round, litter trays always overflowing. Extremely cluttered and no space for niece to play.
• Sister-in-law smokes weed daily, ( she says only when niece is in bed ), but the whole flat stinks of it.

I know the simple answer is to report to soical, but I'm worried they won't do anything and it will just end up withe and my parents being cut off
Does this cross the line to reportable neglect?

I would be surprised if the nursery haven't already raised concerns because they will know about the weed as the child and her belongings will smell of it. They may also have raised concerns over attendance (but your friend shouldn't have said anything, sounds like she needs a refresher in confidentiality).
That doesn't mean you shouldn't report also though. You have seen a lot more than they have and the more people that report the more likely they are to actually visit the family and either put help in place or remove niece.
What is going to happen if you don't report? Do you imagine things getting better? What if something happened to your niece, you'd feel awful knowing you could have stopped it?
By all means take your niece for days out and things if your her mum will let you but you still need to report.
I feel awfully sorry for your niece ending up with parents like your brother and his ex.

I can’t believe the excuses you are coming up with to excuse niece’s mother’s behaviour. This clearly needs reporting and no- it isn’t appropriate for a young child not to be dressed appropriately every day and pj’s, even if clean, don’t cut it.

Please report this. If you don’t feel comfortable contacting social care directly you can contact NSPCC for advice and support.

Yes this, also the NSPCC (i think) can report on your behalf if you ask them to.

Your friend is pretty crap at her job, first she's gossiping about the kids at her nursery, and then she clearly has all this information from you and hasn't reported it through her safeguarding lead.

Poor kid is being failed by all the adults in her life.

1. report
2. your friend should NOT be giving you any info about a child in a nursery she works at that is a safeguarding issue too.

So leave her to live amongst cat shit then?

Yes, poor mum, smoking weed!!
Get a grip.

The nursery attendance, pyjamas, and staying home are not a big deal.

Smoking weed and being stoned in charge of a 4yo definitely is. The cat urine and dirty litter trays sound pretty unsanitary too. I would make a report with a focus on these things.

Some of those are neglect individually like the lack of teeth brushing and weed smell. As a combination they are really bad.

Please report this.

OP first off you sound like an absolutley fantastic Auntie thankyou so much for looking out for your DN.

Yes the mother and especially her father are neglectful (your brother sounds like the scum of the Earth quite frankly). However whether the overstretched SS will actually intervene in any meaningful way is another issue. I do think (in an ideal world) you should report and maybe the RSPCA too, but if for any reason SIL suspects its you, you've had it and the only people actually monitoring DN will be cut out, so not exactly cut and dry, so understand your caution. And also not sure SS or the RSPCA will actually do anything apart from get her back up. I feel there actual threshold for intervention is shockingly high because of being so thinly stretched.

I do like the idea of maybe taking your DN out once a week if you or your parents have capacity? Actually give the kid some fresh air and experiences. If she's 4 she should be starting reception soon maybe you could make any school aware of your safeguarding concerns?

I am so angry at your brother, he's a piece of shit for not helping his daughter or at least facilitating some time for her outside of that house. Xx

I think she needs support - its so hard being a single mum. She sounds depressed, do you have the capacity to help?
Yes you can report but in all honestly it’s unlikely the ss will do anything and it could create a barrier to you seeing your niece. If you can, offer your help and support such as a cleaning, take your niece out ect. If you have a good relationship with the mother and early help referral may be beneficial.

Yes, this is neglect. Your brother is as culpable. They are both sub-optimal parents, to say the least.

I think you're focusing on some of the wrong things. Not sending a child to nursery is not neglect. Just because a session starts and finishes at a particular time, doesn't mean your child has to stay for the full session - you can drop off later and pick up earlier. This isn't neglect.

Staying in your PJs (assuming they're clean) when you aren't going out, is not neglectful. Lots of children prefer this.

Not brushing her teeth is neglect. Are you certain that's actually what's happening, or was she complaining/exaggerating as a joke?

Taking illegal drugs around your child is neglectful. Taking drugs in the home, so that the smell permeates everything, is neglectful.

I don't know whether never taking the child anywhere is neglectful, but it certainly isn't positive. (Also, again, are you certain this is true? You're not there 24/7.)

I know you implied as such yourself, but your brother is a real arsehole. He resents paying to support the child he helped create and won't step in to provide emotional/physical care if the mother is struggling. (Also, he had a relationship with a 20 year old?!)

I guess, what are you willing to do long-term to help this child? Are you able to commit to having her e.g. 1 day a week and every other weekend, whilst encouraging her mum to get some parenting help? She might value a break and someone helping her to learn how to be a better parent.

Yes I would report, but your nursery friend is really wrong to be disclosing that info to you. If the nursery haven’t already made a safe guarding referral they also need to be called into question.

Young mothers get overwhelmed and find themselves lost, then tragedy happens.

I lived very close to the young mother whose two sets of twins died in a house fire, when she left them alone.

It transpired that the house was a mess, litter everywhere, children not attending school/nursery, just not coping. Nobody was “allowed” in the property, social services were aware but still the tragedy happened.

The body size is an indication of how lazy the woman is as is wearing pyjamas all day. Not a good life lesson for the child.

Yes the obesity is the issue 🙄

I think you're the one being judgey and projecting onto OP.

did you have a big sniff of nail polish before writing this? the poor girl is cooped up in a disgusting flat apart from 2 interrupted afternoon a week which are regularly missed inhaling second hand cannabis smoke from her lazy skank of a motherand cat urine fumes wearing the same pyjamas for days without washing! i'd hate to see your house or how your kids (if you have any god forbid) were/are brought up. your kind are part of the problem... ludicrous!

I agree your brother is a dick.. he's as much as fault for being a crap father

Social services need to be made aware but I think they would struggle to effect any change.
SIL is showing clear signs of severe ADHD: gaming addiction meaning she cannot prioritise her daughters needs, no executive functioning to plan and cook so relies on takeaways, weed addiction is used to dampen the ADHD brain and fuel dopamine hits.

Her executive functioning to do domestic basics (cook, tidy, clean, be responsible for daughter and cats) sounds particularly poor. The worse the executive functioning levels the more severe the ADHD.

the problem is that the ability to identify remedial action and put it in place consistently is also an executive function.
in other words, it sounds like SIL doesn’t have the maturity in that part of her brain to fire up the neurons that make improvements to habits and sustain them. That maturity is set and won’t change, a little bit like we all reach our maximum height by the age of about 20. There is no way to make ourselves grow taller, just like there’s no way to make executive functioning more mature.

would you or your family consider looking after neice? At 4 years old a lot of the damage will already have been done and neice likely has inherited ADHD from both parents. It will not be an easy job. But it doesn’t look like niece has much of a future where she is.

Safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility. No do not turn a blind eye and leave her alone.

@Rainbowfish1 Report. This adds to a picture of a child. It adds information from another perspective.
Nursery must also be aware of this child and her circumstances. It is so easy to smell what is going on at home, cat urine/weed on clothes, hair etc. They are duty bound to report.

There may not seem to be a result to your report though, but perhaps some support will be offered. (Early Help or a local charity like Home -Start. Sadly, social work thresholds for neglect are so high.

Also very much continue your contact, build up slowly with both mum and child. Be vigilant and continue to report anonymously if needed. Your support is so valuable.

You can report anonymously. You can blame the nursery. Much of what you list is bad neglect. Perhaps the mother needs help to learn. Social services don't just take the child away. They help & support parents to change. They check-in. Definitely help your niece and report this. Would be much better if things can be on a better track before she starts school.

It's amazing how generous people on Mumsnet can be with other people's time and money.