Girls at DD’s school cannot wear socks because men and boys feel uncomfortable

[Eastie77Returns]

DD’s school has placed a ban on girls wearing socks due to persistent issues with girls wearing skirts that are too short and not the school’s regulation kilts. According to the e-mail sent to parents, girls wearing socks with said short skirts has resulted in some “members of the school community” feeling uncomfortable. When the issue was raised further by some parents, the (male) Deputy made it clear that it was essentially unfair to male pupils, and presumably teachers, to be made to feel awkward when girls undergarments were visible to them. There have also been issues with boys making suggestive comments to girls in short skirts.

I support the school enforcing school uniform policy but hate the fact that 12 year old DD and her friends are already being policed as to what they can or cannot wear because…men. DD hates the thick black tights she now has to wear. She always wore the correct length skirt and knee high socks.

The situation will apparently be reviewed ahead of the warmer months. I just feel this reinforces the view that girls & women need to ensure they dress in a way that doesn’t attract male attention but boys are not learning that inappropriate comments and behaviour towards a girl because of the way she dresses is completely unacceptable.

Uniforms are the problem. No need for the school obsession with policing clothes

Of course the boys are in the wrong for making sexual comments!!! What the fuck?!

Look, I get it. When I was in upper school (3-tier area), I left home in my ‘official’ school skirt. As soon as I got to school, I rushed to the toilets and ripped it off for the shorter one I had underneath (feeling like Cheryl Baker 😂).

I now completely cringe when I think about it and feel embarrassed for the girls themselves when I see those from the same school with skirts that barely cover their checks and just think, “Hope that my skirt didn’t look that bad.”

I do think a sock ban isn’t the best way of going about it, but I understand why it has been implemented. I also think the headmaster’s response has been inappropriate and agree that he has now sexualised the issue, which, especially if he’s not willing to do anything about the boys’ harassment.

It's not only Brits who have school uniforms, but never in my life have I seen girls here wearing skirts as short as described in many MN posts. I very much doubt schools here would put up with it.

The girls in the local high school wear kilts in winter, many of them down to their ankles!

Are you really comparing disabled people with essential equipment to help them live their everyday lives, or living with the results of a traumatic accident, with people who are unwilling to dress in a way so that people can't frequently see their underwear in public, whether they want to see it or not?!

If somebody objects to seeing a person with a medical aid or a facial disfigurement in public, they're a small-minded, prejudiced bigot whose opinion simply isn't worth listening to. Whereas if somebody objects to seeing underwear, bum cheeks, even genitals or in-use sanpro on display in public... well that would be the majority of people and it would be a very mainstream viewpoint.

Would you be happy to see a male teacher walking around with an fully unbuttoned shirt that showed his chest and abdomen every time walked quickly - even though male chests aren't generally considered 'private' areas in the same way? After all, he is wearing a shirt, so is that OK then?

Because schools get parents arguing about the punishments and it is sadly easier to avoid confrontations with parents who back rule breakers, so all get 'punished' which is not fair, but easier on schools.

To be fair it is February it can't be that hot surely

My DD’s school has removed the kilt from their uniform and replaced it with culottes. My dd was incensed at first but it actually looks really smart.

They can be taken up a little bit so that the hem sits mid thigh. But no more because of the gusset/crotch seam.

They have a strict no visible underwear for both boys and girls which some girls routinely flouted. Some girls also complain about the kilts because the school site is quite hilly/windy. So culottes it is. All pupils are permitted to wear trousers if they prefer.

But at no time in the discussion about uniform was male comfort discussed. But it was very clear that underwear or buttocks on show is not appropriate in a school environment. Whether boy, girl or staff member.

Surely it's about cultural norms, though? The vast majority of people in the UK don't see actual legs as taboo in public; but they do see things like underwear and body parts that are usually covered by underwear as needing to be kept private and not on display.

Obviously this varies somewhat on beaches and at swimming pools etc.

I think there’s some confusion though because above you’d said that girls wearing short skirts should be punished. But here you’re complaining that girls are chastised for wearing these clothes.

unfortunately it’s not just a couple of girls. In big secondary schools there’s a lot!! It takes a long time to police this.

And that is how it's done! Bravo to the school.

Sounds sensible. I wonder if shorts under skirts would be a compromise. Tights are horrible!

I have seen some schools make their uniform trousers only which is also a good idea and more comfy than tights. That’s my opinion though as I hate the tights!

in our local secondary in the summer kids can wear shorts and I noticed last year the teeniest tiniest hot pants which I don’t believe is appropriate school uniform.

I agree that it’s in the messaging so agree with many people of this front. But I also see so much hypocrisy.

But then they have all the grief of pupils defiantly accusing them of being perverts and deliberately trying to see their underwear; and many of the parents will also side with their DDs and accuse the teacher/school of the same.

And a lot will then pull the sexism card, complaining that it's only girls who are being told off - even though, in this aspect, none of the boys are actually guilty of a misdemeanour.

At no point has OP said boys have said anything
All we have is what the headmaster thinks

No evidence then of boys being in the wrong at all.

Out of interest why did you do it??

I wore trousers so never did it.

Was it said in an email/letter?

If I ever wore tights when I was younger I’d get thrush within hours so haven’t worn tights for years.

Not appropriate for the school to ban socks

Apologies, the OP said "suggestive comments," not "sexual". Although I would assume "suggestive" and "sexual" means the same thing, really.

But based on the OP, in this case the school hasn't said 'our uniform doesn't incorporate mini skirts because it's a cultural norm that they aren't considered appropriate for the school environment'.

They've instead set an example to boys in their formative years that 'if female doing X makes male uncomfortable, that's reason enough to put a stop to it'.

Exactly this. It's really quite scary/worrying that so many women on here don't have an issue with how the deputy handled this. If even women can't see the issue with that, then how on earth are our young boys ever going to learn and understand that "suggestive" comments are wrong, regardless of what a girl/woman is wearing?!

Yep I will. Grown women in the workplace shouldn’t be policed as to their dress code.
In any case, we often can’t win. I worked in France when I was in my early 20s and I was told by my male managers and colleagues that I dressed like a man and looked like a lesbian because I wore trousers and heavy tops all the time. That I needed to smarten up in front of male clients. I went shopping and bought short skirts and low cut tops and felt relieved when they expressed approval.

Some years later, back in the UK, an older male manager said he was not happy with women (including me) walking around the office in short, revealing clothes during the Summer. The older, wiser and less compliant me told him that was too bad.

Schools don’t put up with it. Girls have the
correct length skirts and roll thrm up and down to suit. I have often seen many very very very shorts skirts on the school run. Other parents have said they see it too.

I am aware of other countries that wear a uniform but I can only there to the two I have lived in. I still think uniforms create this problem.

Thank you, this is the point I’ve been trying to make. The Deputy’s message was not simply “short skirts are not in line with school policy”. It was the additional point that they make boys uncomfortable and that “boys will be boys”(and so presumably should be expected to make suggestive comments).

The message for boys from the Deputy is that if they behave inappropriately towards girls, the fault lies with girls for provoking them into doing so and if the girls changed their attire there wouldn’t be a problem.

Which ignores the fact that some boys and men leer and make suggestive comments to girls who are dressed ‘modestly’. I always wore full school uniform with longer skirts and trousers and was a very shy girl. That didn’t deter grown men from leering, making horrendous comments and approaching me and my similarly dressed friends when we were 13-14 years old.

I do take your point but if you can’t ‘make’ your daughter wear trousers, why do you think schools can ‘make’ other girls conform?

There’s a few months until it’s too hot for tights, hopefully by then they will have figured out a better solution.

Of course the boys should be strongly taught not to make suggestive comments; although we don't know what 'suggestive' means in this scenario: they could have said "I can see your knickers/bum" - which, although not an acceptable thing to say, isn't entirely an unsurprising response from a hormonal teen to somebody who is deliberately showing her knickers/bum.

I suppose, if there were an equivalent where the boys were deliberately dressing to show their pants/bums, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the girls would be more uncomfortable having to see them than their fellow boys would, though. I wonder if people would then blame the girls for their reactions to this?

The DH was categorically wrong to even mention the boys specifically - or the fact that it was clearly targeted at (some of) the girls. He should have just announced that, in high school, we act like young soon-to-be-adults and not like toddlers, which means that we cover up our private areas and don't go around with them on display - as nobody wants to (or should be forced to) see them in everyday life at school. If students are routinely wearing any items of uniform inappropriately, so as others can see their private areas and underwear, then new rules will be brought in swiftly, to 'help' them to dress properly for school.