Tourette’s/BAFTAs offensive language

[Lochroy]

I wasn’t watching, I’ve just read the article on BBC news. I will admit I know little of Tourette’s and therefore posting to understand.

The tics agree involuntary, and often use offensive language. But what I’m struggling to get my head around is excusing use of the N word because it was caused by the disability when it was (seemingly) only directed at black people?

Also presumably it’s learned vocab so children don’t have swear words as tics? How does this develop?

But there was no intent to racism, or to cause anyone pain. He had a tic - it should have been dealt with in good grace by all, and not blown up like this. It's honestly exhausting.

Yes. He's been beaten up and arrested because of his tics, he's lived a hard life for decades. Stop insinuating this poor, nice man is a racist, it's cruel and unkind.

Gosh this is complex. Thank you to those who have explained about the “worst thing in the moment” being spoken. I’d thought it was more random words and that people only had one or two words used repeatedly, not that they varied by situation.

I’ve read all the posts, and whilst I can understand why someone doesn’t have to apologise for being disabled, it really doesn’t sit comfortably with me that the use of such appalling language is being defended/ made out to be excusable because it’s involuntary. I think Stan Collymore’s take on it was about as well balanced as it’s possibly able to get. It’s a shame the BBC made such a hash of it, I do think it should have been edited out because, regardless of intent, it is an unacceptable term. And it’s detracted from other coverage of the film.

I'm interested in the fact that he has shouted Fuck A*H in a Muslim neighbourhood.

Do you have a link?

What Muslim neighbourhood in Galashiels?

If you watch the link I posted earlier, the clip from the film about his life, his lawyer specifically references in court, to the judge, that he has used the N and P words.

The understanding of racism has shifted. It used to be considered treating people differently because of their race. Now, it's defined by the person impacted. So intent doesn't matter.

I think this is right. It is similar with sexism, bullying, harassment etc.

Clearly not legally, as the police are not investigating the Baftas events.

Of course the impact on the person at the receiving end should be considered. But I don’t believe intent doesn’t matter. This was not in any way shape or form the act of a racist. The slurs shouted were entirely involuntary, the product of disability and in no way a reflection of the character or beliefs of the disabled person themselves.

And you don't understand nuance.

Good night.

But maybe not sit in an audience at an awards show.

Nuance ?

Good night to you too.

Yes actually, that's probably exactly what would happen - that's about textbook copralalia, the most offensive thing possible is going to likely come out, particularly in a stressful situation.

I mean this is the man who has shouted "I'm a rapist" and "I'm a paedo" in the middle of a supermarket.

I don't think he would and of course, he hasn't.

What do you mean that you don’t think he would?

Of course he would shout out something about terrorists or similar. He has Tourette’s. This is what Tourette’s is.

He hasn’t because presumably he has never been in that situation. But it would 100% happen.

That does seem to imply some choice.

Have you seen his film? As a depressed and isolated teenager, he started selling drugs and shouted at police officers walking past him that he had drugs up his jumper (which he did). He was arrested. You think he chose to do that?

He can’t control what he says, but you can control your utter ignorance about his disability.

One of the key points here is that the awards ceremony was a high stress environment with lots of sensory stimulation. This is a triggering environment.

Walking down the street on an average day isn't necessary a high stress environment.

Therefore the chances of a bad attack are much higher in the former than the latter. And this is also crucial to understanding the condition.

My friend has ended up actively avoiding certain situations because she knows it's triggering and that's distressing. On other days she can be perfectly fine. I've been out with her and had no idea she had Tourettes never mind how bad it was. Then she had a high stress situation and fucking hell.

This doesn't mean she should avoid stressful situations. Indeed sometimes they are unavoidable. John was invited to this awards ceremony and had every right to be there - the organisers were fully aware of how it might go. Cos the content of the film he was up for an award for. So no he shouldn't have left the room. Yes the other people at the ceremony should have been fully debriefed. That was the responsibility of the organisers. Not the disabled man. As I say it's not about apologies it's about adequate explanations.

As I also say abad Tourettes attack is very obvious and very distinct. It doesn't look like or sound like someone hurling abuse. It's characterised by a physical response as well as a verbal one. If you know and understand this you are much less likely to be offended even if something is offensive. It might be jarring but it's obviously not the same usage as in an abusive attack.

The difference is important to note. I'm willing to bet that most people complaining haven't actually seen the incident and certainly haven't seen how he was behaving physically at the time. The two black men would have been able to. This adds a visual layer of context that isn't picked up by cameras.

I think the biggest issue here is the failure of the organisers to fully debrief and to give people the knowledge and information in order to ensure that everyone knows what's happening adequately. It shouldn't have come as a shock. And doing this properly possibly would have helped the situation from becoming so stressful and therefore being less likely to transpire in the first place.

It's the lack of adequate planning and support that's the real issue. For all quarters. Not what he says, whether he should be there or whether he should hide from the non-disabled world in case they get upset.

Also you can't make up a hypothetical situation, decide on the basis of no evidence how he would react, and then present that as proof that there's an "element of choice".

There isn't. He's severely disabled and has suffered with it, and for it, for decades.

This thread is dripping in racism. Classic MN.

What an utterly ridiculous argument. Do you not understand at all, that this is a condition over which the sufferer has no control ? Neither of the examples you gave have happened, but it’s quite possible that in those cases, he would shout something similar if he was triggered, and without regard to the potentially serious consequences. The words are not a reflection of his character or beliefs, but of his disability. And your assertion that there is some sort of choice involved here is offensive in the extreme.

Ok this one has shocked me the most.

What do you wanna do, drop him off in a mosque to test his Tourette’s out and see what happens?

That is a disgusting post.

Your ignorance is astonishing. Your ableism even more so.

A Brit landing in Iran probably isn't going to be worried about their Tourettes as their biggest concern. That would be the Iran army arresting them on the spot for being British in Iran. The foreign office would have a large shit fit given the travel advice. I'd be asking why he felt the need to ignore the advice... And then hand a bill.

Tell you what actually we could use my teenager as a test. Up for it? See what happens?

Examples ? Or is it just a case of anyone who disagrees with you is racist ? And I wasn’t actually talking about the thread in general, I was referring to the fact that given the words shouted had their origins in uncontrollable disability and not intent to cause offence, it’s difficult to label it as racism.

I can see how, to people who think someone with Tourette’s shouting out the n word is racist, this thread could be seen to be dripping in racism.

But that doesn’t make it so.

He doesn’t have a choice. How is this so difficult
to understand.

You are still implying that he has control over
his actions so your ‘oh I don’t think he would in these scenarios ’ is irrelevant as you appear to understand absolutely little when it comes to Tourette’s. He himself doesn’t know how his tics will manifest.

Your brain INVOLUNTARY seeks to say the most offensive thing possible relating to the situation you’re in, so he may well say something offensive about Muslims in a mosque. He’s been beat up and arrested previously for fuck sake. Like the documentary about a group of teenagers with Tourette’s who went to America and kept shouting ‘bomb’ in an airport.

Maybe you should watch the film 🙄.