Why aren't people vaccinating against measles?

[TableTurners]

Just read about the measles outbreak in Enfield and Haringey at the moment - just wondering why a lot of people aren't vaccinating again measles these days?

Apparently the UK has lost it's measles free status or something, just seems weird to me that we're letting something old fashioned like this go rife again.

Fot the ones who believe vaccines are harmful, people calling them stupid or other insults really doesn’t help. We need to listen to people’s concerns and educate them. If you insult them, they just get further out of reach and deeper into their extreme views and conspiracy theories.

The bigger problems are different cultures, language barriers etc. Again we need to engage with people, not insult them.

Surely it's occurred to you that people might be concerned for all children? It's not the child's fault of their parent doesn't get them vaccinated. So, yes, I care about them even though I didn't give birth to them.

And there are children who cannot be vaccinated, because of other, unrelated health issues.

That’s highly unlikely to be the cause. The amount of children who have both doses at age 5 is roughly the same (83% versus 82%).

Kiwi’s make up a tiny proportion of the UK’s immigrants. Even if every single person that left NZ last year had immigrated to the UK (they didn’t), kiwis would make up 10% of the total immigrant intake.

Unvaccinated New Zealanders are definitely not the issue here.

Because they are idiots

We are privileged enough to have access to free vaccinations... Yet people choose not to?

Only one conclusion

Which children cannot be vaccinated???

I think its people have zero clue how dangerous measles, mumps and rubella actually are.
They are 2/3 generations away from people who were affected.
Mumps makes up to 30% of males infertile, well the affected males don't have any descendents.
Rubella causes birth defects, again we must be generations away from that being an issue.

Its like child birth, we are generations away from that being a very risky business. So people don't see the risks involved

Babies under 1 for a start.
Children with some other conditions like cancer

8 pages in but the why is simple. autism. people don't want to take the risk.

maybe best to wait till 3-4 by then the most severe spectrum of autism is evident and people won't feel guilty making their fears known.

At my children’s nursery it was a condition of the place that the child was up-to-date with their vaccines and you had to fill out a form with details of the jabs they had had and when. Of course, that was a private nursery. I assume state schools can’t do the same due to the risk of religious / disability discrimination. Surely though schools could have this rule but allow exceptions on medical / religious grounds?

People were anti-vax before the autism argument came up. That's a red herring.

I am 50 and had mumps and rubella as a child. We just viewed them as matter of course. I never had measles but friends did.

All that does is let people like me, who don't use day care and don't receive subsidies or family benefit payments, have the privilege of choice.

I'm similar age, never seen the effects of mumps, measles or rubella. I potentially had rubella as a small child but no recollection of it and I don't know anyone who had it as a pregnant adult with the resulting birth defects.
Our generation girls were immunised against rubella around end of primary school. When was that introduced?

And actually in the era of scans some babies might be terminated if they have been affected by it so hidden from sight.

Its our parents generation who might know of children in the community who died from measles or were permanently disabled by it.

Mumps the men who were made infertile by it are hardly going to be shouting that from the rooftops. So again hidden from sight. Of the radar of young people.

At 50 you might be mum to primary age children or you could well be a great grandmother, but new mums making decisions for their baby today are unlikely to have seen the effects of measles, mumps or rubella.

Yes, but the poster I replied to said that we are 2-3 generations away from people who have seen the effects of these diseases. This isn't true, it's more recent than that.

At my school, rubella vaccinations were given at 11. I got rubella in the wild when I was 9. I remember it well. It wasn't that awful but the effect on unborn babies if you get it later is of concern. I got mumps when I was 6 (twice, once on each side separately, which was pretty common). No big deal either, but I know it can for teenage boys and men. School friends had measles, but I escaped that one. I didn't get chicken pox and got that as an adult, thankfully between pregnancies.

I only know of one person adversely affected by these diseases and she would be in her mid-30s now. Not in a way that stops her living her life, some hearing loss in one ear.

When I was younger, these diseases were pretty routine, so I just don't agree that we are 2-3 generations removed from people who have seen the effects of them. Though I suppose I am old enough, and my children are old enough, that I could be a grandmother, so maybe 2. :-)

I agree this is why it gets complicated. I’d personally like to see these vaccines mandated to allow children to go to nursery / school like in other countries however this would leave a group of children exposed whose parents just wouldn’t send them to school or nursery so it’s a tricky one

That's why I think the vaccines themselves should just be made mandatory for all. Don't give neglectful parents the option of denying their kids an education simply because of their ridiculous antivaxx conspiracy theories.

I'm sure there would be outrage from some people about the state taking away the right of parents to choose, but parents don't actually own their children and they don't have the right to neglect or abuse them. At what point do the rights of the children themselves take precedence?

I don't think middle class anti vaxers are the driver behind the latest outbreak.

Big cities like London have transitory populations who don't always have access to healthcare and have adults and older children who were born in countries where there isn't the same childhood vaccination programmes as here. The younger children may slip through the net of the vaccine programmes due to moving about and not having consistent healthcare. Housing for a lot of people in cities is precarious and temporary.

When my children were young vaccines were done by a health visitor coming to the house. Appointments were made for you proactively by the health visitor. This seems to be less common and parents without transport may struggle to attend appointments and more disorganised families won't make appointments.

The heavy handed approach to vaccines during COVID (which as it turned out did cause problems for some) has soured many people towards the vaccine programme for other things.

Misinformation on social media about mercury in vaccines, although the MMR doesn't contain a mercury derived preservative.

Some Muslims consider the MMR has ingredients derived from pork and don't think this is acceptable. I believe there is an acceptable option, but this hasn't been promoted enough in the relevant communities.

This is exactly the trope that the anti vaxxers roll out though, that the state own our children etc. They link it all to Epstein and child trafficking. It’s absolutely wacko but I think it would cause uproar. I’ve seen this way of thinking increase exponentially since Covid and I’m not sure why. Prior to that, I knew of one anti vaxxer but it was very
rare. Now people wear it like a badge of honour.

I think there are a lot more anti vaxxers out there than people think. And I think they are across socio economic groups, that’s the challenge. I made a comment up thread about the stereotypical anti vaxxers but I actually know several people like this who come from a poor, vulnerable background so I can see why they have become easily influenced but I also know privately educated children who are not vaccinated and whose parents have done ‘metal detoxes’ and they treat their children only with homeopathy. I also know someone who has a severely disabled child and I think that has caused distrust because of her poor experiences with said child. And a lot of what I would call ‘normal’ people
who seem to have become anti vaccine purely after Covid. In my kids school, everyone used to get the flu spray but I’ve seen more and more opting out.

My point is that I live in a middle class area and I’m completely for vaccinations but even I know of a lot of anti vaxxers and vaccine resistant people so I think it’s a real challenge.

I know you're right, it would cause uproar. But what's the alternative? Just allow people to neglect their children and let measles spread? Or punish the children of those parents by denying them an education and therefore making them even more susceptible to the next conspiracy theory?

I dont think calling anyone stupid or refusing access to public services will help. If anything it'll make things much, much worse and actually drive people away.

When my child was younger they couldnt have the MMR- this was for genuine health reasons btw and had been ratified by a paediatric immunologist. Didn't stop the bloody health visitor going on about it all the time. At one point she wanted me to tell the leader of any baby group I went to before we went into the group. I might as well have tied a sign around their neck saying 'unclean'

Said child has now been vaccinated. Although that was a trial in itself as my local GP runs a vaccination clinic on a Tuesday afternoon only. Great because the target audience is babies who's parents are (usually) on maternity leave. Not so great if your child is actually at school, you've had to take them out of school, you've had to take leave from work and youre sitting in a room full of babies. Then having to explain to the nurses why you're asking for the MMR for a school age child without it making you look like you're an anti-vaxxer wasnt much fun either.

They would also do a lot if they more widely promoted the gelatine-free version of the MMR imo. As it is in my local area you have to specifically ask for this. A lot of the families in my area who would want the gelatine free MMR have low levels of English as it is.

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBackno I think it’s probably the only way forward but I’m not sure any government would be strong enough to enforce it

@borisjohnsonsliedetectorI was late getting my son’s booster because every time we booked it in, he was ill and then we had a period where life got turned upside down for one reason and another. Anyway, I got no hassle at all when I booked him in and when I took him to the surgery, I started apologising to the nurse and she cut in and said things happen, you’re here now. So I had a very positive experience and no hassle from anyone. Just giving my experience for balance.

Completely agree.

We know some dc cannot be vaccinated but there were always enough who were in order to protect them and everyone else. The vast majority were vaccinated snd parents understood why and were grateful! Anyone who lived through these diseases was pleased when vaccinations arrived. I think you need around 90% plus to protect everyone.

Now, stupidity reigns. We have blatantly stupid people who not only don’t care about their dc or anyone else’s. Being nice and encouraging to them has not worked.

I think I would now go down the Australia line. Compulsory vaccinations or no nursery or school. These parents are potentially killing their dc and others knowingly, and it has to stop. Time to make vaccinations mandatory unless medically exempt.

I think we should utilise people like DH’s Granny.

She’s 103 but still with it enough to ask family members if their child has been “done” yet. And to explain, in a firm but kind way, why her experiences were to any relative who is wavering a bit.

I think hearing from people like her would be far more effective than the way it’s being dealt with atm.