Vegetarianism/Veganism

[CurlewKate]

Why is Mumsnet so hostile? Just that really…

Vegan of 26 years here. Everywhere is hostile! Not every person, far from it, but there’s always the haters.

I just ignore it. I’m doing what suits my ethics, I can’t change the world.

Interesting lack of response……

I was a vegetarian for 20+ years (from early 90s to roughly 2014). Literally no one gave a shit back then that I was a vegetarian. I mean sometimes they didn’t know what to feed me. I got a lot of, oh, great, you’re a vegetarian, so you eat salmon, right? 🙄 But no one was remotely offended or bothered.

I’ve only noticed it when people talk about feeding kids. Many people think you should feed your child a “standard” diet until they are old enough to choose. I think people forget how little meat the average British person probably ate in the past - and forget that many countries are culturally vegetarian to no significant ill-effect.

The other problem is that vegans are perceived to be somewhat sanctimonious - they’re saving the planet or stopping animal cruelty etc. and people love to knock other people off their perch.

To each their own.
No one should preach to anyone else.

Cognitive dissonance

In my extended family there are quite a few vegetarians, several of whom have eaten that way for 40ish years. There are also 2 vegans in their early twenties who became vegan a couple of years ago. The meat eaters always eat free range and outdoor bred meat etc.

The vegetarians made their choice as teenagers, realise it's a personal choice, and never criticise meat eaters. We do make a veggie alternative when catering for us all together, puddings and cakes, cheeseboards etc are never a problem as they eat dairy and eggs.

However the vegans are a different matter. They are young and they just can't resist informing everyone that they think their lifestyle choice is morally superior, they won't accept that their dietary choice is no more morally superior than anyone else's.

Over Christmas it really brought home how difficult it is to cater for vegans within a mixed dietary group and how horrible some of the vegan foods are. They had to have their own puddings and cakes made with oil, no eggs. They had their own vegan cheeseboard, I did try some, it was not nice, didn't taste like cheese. They had to have vegan boxes of chocolates. The vegetarians had to eat a vegan main course because otherwise it would have been even more work to prepare a separate vegetarian one.

It's interesting how when the vegetarians were/are young they never banged on about how they thought they were better than meat eaters, they just got on with it and realised it was just their own choice. The vegans are extremely sanctimonious and have no qualms telling meat eaters how awful they must be to eat meat. That's what irritates me the most.

It annoys me that people who make a dietary choice get more consideration than people who have actual medical restrictions. Again and again people with real constraints are told that every little thing can’t be catered for, but of course philosophical and religious diets need special menus.

it’s not the vegans that I mind, it’s that they are given extra consideration by society, when in reality if a diet is not medically required, it is just a variation of picky eating.

People don't like views being forced on them any more than animals don't want our choices forced on them.

I only realised what a luxury being vegetarian was when I worked in Poland in 1990 before the iron curtain came down. We were staying in a non posh hotel opposite the Russian embassy and one Sunday morning for breakfast I was served a boiled egg and a delicious looking sweet cake. The boys had their usual sausages swimming in grease. I offered politely to share the cake (the egg would not have survived sharing)! They initially declined, but then gratefully accepted the morsel. They then told the staff they were vegetarian, but were sent packing! Food in restaurants could be challenging eg borscht often has ham. Luckily my colleagues spoke Polish. My mum had sent me out (despite being in my 20's) with a large quantity of nuts and seeds. So I shared those nicely as well. Yes it's a choice, and privileged. But I stick by my choice.

@Ponderingwindow I am both a vegetarian by choice and also have a medical restriction on my diet. Perhaps I should get annoyed at myself! But in seriousness, the 14 major allergens should be declared in restaurants and many places have gluten free options indicated or a separate gluten free menu too. So I don't think it's right to say that allergies are not catered for these days. It's so much better than it used to be. The two things just aren't connected in my mind.

And tbh, often the vegan/vegetarian options are there for the people who want to eat less meat and aren't actually vegetarian or vegan as a choice, as well as for the small number of vegans/vegetarians.

Making a choice for ethical reasons really isn't the same as "picky eating". I had no issue with meat before I was vegetarian and the fact that I don't eat it now isn't because I'm picky about food. There are many meat eaters who have a very much more limited diet than me as a vegetarian, for example.

Gosh, you got lucky! 😅 I was vegetarian from the late 90s to early 2010s and I got HOUNDED by everyone around me. I genuinely rarely mentioned it because I wasn’t interested in ‘converting’ people. But people inevitably noticed. It always started off with innocent questions - Why are you vegetarian? (Fair enough). But then they often seemed to want to turn it into a debate, to prove I was wrong. It reached a point where eating with others became tedious because I couldn’t just enjoy the food on my plate. I had to constantly explain and defend myself. I didn’t want to have to constantly talk about it.

Having said that, more recent initiatives such as Student Unions voting to make university cafes entirely meat-free have been totally counterproductive. Ostensibly it’s to protect the environment but all it’s done is piss people off for removing their right to choose. Hence more and more people becoming hostile to it.

DS is veggie and complains that a lot of restaurants now do one veggie option that is also vegan, which really limits the choices - no eggs, no cheeses.

This Christmas we had a lot of guests and I had to cater for people who eat everything and like trad Christmas food, gluten free relatives who like trad Christmas food, vegetarians and people with other allergies. I was often juggling three or four variants at every meal and after a week I was shattered and a bit tetchy.

My attitude towards vegetarians and vegans is reactive...

There is a joke funny "How can you tell if somebody is a vegan? Don't worry - they'll tell you"

I have vegetarian and pescatarian friends who are completely pleasant and normal human beings, don't make a fuss about it, and are always grateful for any special efforts made in the catering (and I do make a lot of effort to always provide not just something they "can" eat but something interesting and from scratch / same effort as the meat dishes; plus I have a separate veggie grill and veggie tools for my BBQs; I wouldn't want them to feel less or have less as my guests).

Every vegan I have ever met wants to tell me ALL about it, are sanctimonious and preachy, quite certain that their diet is superior from both a dietary and environmental point of view (which is quite frankly bollocks - there is no way either is true of the vegans I have met that eat highly processed fake foods and are comparing their diet to the locally reared meat & vegetables I buy from the farm shop up the road).

I also hate things like meat free Mondays and similar - because a) if we tried to make non-meat-eaters eat meat they would rightly be in uproar and b) this usually translates into less healthy beige carbs.

So...basically if you're not a dick about it, and not telling me you're better than me or trying to get me to do it too, then I'm fine with it.

If I ever meet a vegan who is not a dick about it I'll report back 😁

Because the truth hurts!

I am not a vegan or vegetarian, though I aim to eat very little meat and dairy. I also think it’s a more ethical way of living.

I have nothing against vegans or veganism, but I am against it being thrust down my throat.

At work, a group of friends went vegan and every meal I had that had meat was met with judgement and hostility about how I am not considering the abuse that animals go through. This is not true, and I am extremely particular about the meat I choose and the welfare standards and I am a big believer of using the whole animal and not letting things go to waste, and the best way of honoring the life that has been taken is to make sure every part is accounted for.

I also went to get an implant fitted after the birth of my child, I was morbidly obese before pregnancy, but had severe HG and was just overweight after the birth of my child. The doctor inserting my implant thought it prudent to discuss my weight WHILST doing the procedure and instead of giving me legitimate medical dietary advice based on my medical information, PCOS and medications that make me gain weight furiously fast or referring to peer support groups, she wrote down a list of books about veganism I should read and preached about how I'd be saving the planet.

I came away from that appointment completely discombobulated but gave it a try anyway and ended up with an iron deficiency and on supplementation that made me vomit and backed me up so severely I developed hemorrhoids that then required a second hemmorhoidectomy and robbed me of my dignity. In the end I actually ended up gaining weight and only saw results for weightloss when I turned back to a meat protein rich diet.

As vegans enter my social circle, many of them preach and preach about veganism and about how I should try it, and I've just not "done it right" and I need to find the right vegan diet for me and none of them ever seem to take no for an answer.

In fact I never tell them they should eat meat. I'm highly respectful of their dietary choices. All of the hostility seems to be one way and it's all directed at meat eating.

I am not either, but for me there is a big difference between the two.

I don't hate vegetarians and I don't think I know any vegans, but I do have a big problem with parents deciding that their young children are vegan. Humans are omnivores and it should be a personal decision. I know there are vegan parents who allow this.

So many "gluten free" options are not actually gluten free though. I can only think of 2 pubs locally where I can eat. I'm glad veggie options are catered for though as I don't eat meat either.

There are parents all over the UK filling their kids with processed junk food. I’d take a vegan parent with knowledge of nutrition feeding their kids a vegan diet over those feeding processed junk. I think once you have your eyes opened on the meat and dairy industry, I can see why you would have a vegan household.

I think some mumsnetters can be very narrow minded on lots of topics. They assume their own experiences are universal. So they encounter one or two preachy vegans and decide that all vegans are like that. Then if a vegan posts something on here that isn't remotely preachy those narrow minded mumsnetters can't help but get a dig in based on nothing but their own perceptions. It's tedious.

There are many sanctimonious vegans but also many that aren’t. My dd1 partner isn’t. He doesn’t eat anything animal derived or wear leather, although he’s fine with wearing wool providing it’s locally sourced. He also doesn’t preach, says it’s his choice to become vegan, has even offered to make and prepare his own food when he stays at ours. And doesn’t mind if dd eats meat either.

as a result I will cook a vegan meal for us all when he’s at ours as I like vegan meals myself (can’t stand vegan cheese though)

on the other hand someone I know in my wider circle is very preachy, refuses to come to social meals as the sight of people eating meat makes her angry and physically sick, and will lecture us on our own choices. Her choice though I suppose.

However it’s my dds partner gentle outlook that makes me want to pursue veganism or vegetarianism further as I’m genuinely interested rather than preachy, judgmental woman at social club.

OnlyOneAdda that is such an uninformed generalision. I am an elderly vegan and have been for decades. I don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know and just quietly choose a vegan option in restaurants and cafes. My family and friends are more than welcome to eat meat, it is not even worth a discussion. To me it is no more newsworthy or interesting than saying I prefer "full briefs" to skimpy knickers.

FWIW I eat virtually no processed foods and am apparently very healthy for my age. My adult vegan DC are the same and were brought up never to comment on the choices of other people.

Please don't make assumptions.

Fair enough. All I can say is that I’m glad that in this, as in many other things, my real life social circle is completely different to Mumsnetters. I have never been “preached to” by a vegetarian or vegan over the age of about 18. I see nothing wrong with vegan/vegetarian parents raising their children the same way. It would be absurd for me to expect V/Vs to cook meant for me. Oh, and I have never had any trouble catering for the differing dietary requirements of my friends.

I do wonder if some of the vociferous “antis” have ever met a vegetarian!

Exactly what I was going to say.