Are families really expected to pay for care home fees?

[Whatsituation]

I always thought it was paid for by savings or property owned by the person or if they had neither then paid by the government?

Dh has been telling me how if MIL/FIL ever needs to go into a home his siblings will expect us to contribute along with them for a ‘better’ home?? I’ve said no that’s not happening and it won’t be a better one just the same I assume but they will
habe money coming in from various places for each resident it’s not like there are council care home and private ones I assumed the council fund spaces wherever they are ?

He’s said I’m being unkind but there’s no way I’m spending money on care fees for his parents !

Don't even open the door to that nonsense. Not my monkey, not my circus on repeat.

My family is a lot wealthier than my inlaws and we have made money ourselves. My MIL has recently had a health incident meaning my SIL and her DB are now sniffing around trying to lead my DH into paying for stuff because it could lead to us paying for more care down the road. I have told them straight that it's just not happening,. Not once. For nothing. Ever.

The sickening thing is that MIL has money. Not an infinite amount but certainly enough that she can afford stuff herself meaning all SIL and BIL are doing is protecting their own interest forgetting it's NOT THEIR MONEY. This is money MIL made and FIL would want her to spend on herself if he was still around. But no, SIL didn't even make certain changes to the house because she didn't "need" them (like putting in a wet room) because of the money even though it would provide MIL with more dignity at this difficult stage.

DH tries to get them to spend the money on MIL but is outvoted every time. As I say to him, the inheritance doesn't matter to us, he is the only one who can behave in a totally altruistic manner and it's down to him to try to get them to see sense. Even my DM, who really doesn't like my in laws - mainly because of this prevailing attitude which has raised it's ugly head a number of times over the years - thinks it's absolutely disgraceful behaviour of my SIL/partner and BIL.

Husbands parents sold the house they owned and now rent . I’ve no idea why. They have a few pensions between them, but I am not going to fund them.
No idea where the money from the house sale went.
Presumably to one of his brothers.

I know some are saying it may be a small top up but surely once you’ve agreed if that amount goes up you’re liable? I don’t want to be in that situation

@Whatsituation Not my monkey. Not my circus. On repeat.

I don’t blame you. If your financial situation changes downwards you’d be in a more difficult position of withdrawing from the deal. It’s totally unrealistic for anyone to expect to have other people pay their fees etc for them.

Does your DH realise that people who are self funding pay a premium which subsidises council funded places? So if your PiL was in a home with mixed residents (self and council funded), you would not only be paying for PIL, but some random person also? Some homes don't do this, but they are few and far between.

Where I am, residential care is rougly between £1400 to £2200 per person per week. That's a lot of money to find.

No you would never be expected to pay. This sort of retoric really annoys me in the news! My dad went into a home due to advanced dementia and he paid out of savings until they ran down. At that point, social services did a financial assessment and agreed to fund him, though he did have to give some money from his pension towards it each week which is obviously fine. They did try to move him to a cheaper home in a town 30 mins away (and in my opinion, worse home), however they were not allowed to move purely based on money eg it was has to be able to meet his needs as they develop, and the move would have stopped my mum visiting everyday so would have been detrimental. We fought this and social services agreed to fund the home he was currently in minus the amount he funded from his pension. If your parents do not own a house or have savings you will never be forced to pay, of course you can choose to but it’s always a choice.

Ofcourse you won't be liable. Nobody can just decide that you have to pay more. What they could do is that if the person's health deteriorated and she would need more care tell the family that this would cost x amount. The family can then decide if they want/can pay that. If not it's LA that will take over.

I suspect your DH is naive about the cost. If average weekly costs are, say £1.5k per person and they're talking about "topping up" council funding by, let's say, a third, that's £1K a week for both parents, so £13K a year for each sibling.

Would I do this for my own parents? Yes, as I'm in a financial position to do so at the moment, and I only have to consider myself. However, it would divert money away from my retirement savings - and with the way things are going, I suspect our generation will be in a far worse position than our parents by our retirement. And if you have kids, it's diverting money away from their current needs and financial future too

Having visited people in care homes, I think the best thing you can do is visit at lot and take them out for trips frequently. They would value that far far more than a marginally better care home.

My grandparents rented from the council, and had very little savings. They did, however, give my mum and dad a house deposit, and probably same for dad’s siblings. In their older years they also did tons of childcare.
So, people can “not make provision” for old age but it doesn’t mean they are not deserving of help.
I bet the people saying “ let the state fund it” are the very same people blowing a gasket over being taxed more…
Very few people could actually afford to fully fund their own care if they were in a care home more than a couple of years ,but you’d think people with several children might expect their children to help out if they can to enable a choice of care.

I care for DH with dementia. I have had contact with a number of care homes in recent times and do make use of respite services. IME some homes are ok. I would not say good and some are definitely not ok. Local authorities will adopt a cost centred approach to care. We do have the means to fund care and also contributed to DH's parents costs as well. That being said you can only fund what is possible and reasonable and before any commitments are made you need to be fully sighted on what you are getting into. At the outset please note there is a huge difference in care costs according to type. Costs for dementia care can be very high indeed and requires well trained specialist staff. Care for someone just frail and needing some physical support is much cheaper.

It sounds like your DH is talking about ‘top up fees’ which are very common. You can refuse and his parents will have to wait (often in hospital) for a bed to become available in a 100% council funded care home which can meet their needs (few of these around now, and presuming they have no property / limited savings). Or you can pay ‘top up fees’ which is basically the extra money a more expensive (not necessarily better) care home costs, compared to a council one. When you see his parents stuck in hospital for months on end, losing weight, picking up infections, losing their personalities etc etc, this is often the point that children agree to pay the top up fee so they can be settled somewhere nice and get out of hospital.

There are quite a lot of assumptions on here and a fair bit of misinformation.

In England at least, very few Councils own and run their own care homes these days. They agree contracts with local, privately owned homes at discounted rates. The homes provide the same level of care for council funded residents as self funders, with self funder fees set at a higher rate so that the care home owners can off-set the discounts to Council funded residents. Many of these homes offer excellent care and are assessed by CQC with the same level of expectation as any other home.

If you are council funded, you will have gone through an assessment to understand your care needs before admission to a home (unless it is an emergency admission, at which point your assessment will be done in the home). Wherever possible the Council will aim to support care at home, even if self funding, as this is often the best thing for the person. Plus it is illegal to remove someone to a care home without their consent. The financial assessment is entirely separate and takes place after the care assessment.

For those people without sufficient funds to fund their own care, but levels of need which mean they can't remain at home safely, they will be offered a care home on the Council contract list. If (and only if) family can afford to and want to pay to top up fees so that a loved one can stay in a non-Councul funded place, they will be in a position to choose from a wider range of care homes. By this point you would be paying extra essentially for hotel costs and potentially higher staffing ratios as the care home will need to demonstrate it can meet the level of care needs for the person in question before you move them in - otherwise you may find they ask you to find another home more suited.

Most care homes - even the expensive ones - run on a mixture of core staff and agency staff, which are almost always paid peanuts for the work they do. And some of the more expensive homes are truly awful once you look past the hotel aspects of the care, often having much lower staff ratios and refusing to deal with increasingly complex needs of residents as they age. I had a great Aunt that spent a fortune on an extra care apartment with the intention of going into the nursing wing, when the time came. 4 years in, the very affluent owners decided to close the nursing wing and all that was left were the extra care apartments but without any care. In the end the Aunt had no money left and had to move into a Council home which could deal with her increasing needs due to dementia.

Nursing care is a different category altogether and has other types of funding routes associated with it.

What about someone who is already struggling to make ends meet, or has very little extra but wants to put a little bit by for their DCs future or heaven forfend- their own - so they aren’t a financial burden on their DCs when the time comes.

What about them? I was talking about me, hence the 'personally'.

You need to check your privilege if you genuinely believe every decent family has £60 spare at the end of the month.

If people don't have it, then they don't have it. Nobody is expecting people on the breadline to fork out for someone's care. I literally referred to that in the next sentence of my post.

Upthread, someone said £1500 a week is outrageously expensive.

Is it, though?

To make maths easier, let’s say £1400 a week, £200 a day,

To get your own room with bed and breakfast in a hotel, you would probably think £100 a night pretty reasonable.

Add another two meals a day - delivered to your room if you aren’t mobile. 24/7 on call staff. Laundry done. All utilities, TV license, cleaning (which may well include cleaning up after incontinence, sickness etc). GP visits to the home managed by a staff member. Activities like crafts, wheelchair gym classes or whatever. Gardeners for any outdoor space. Assistance with any medications needed.

Is it really outrageous?

I work in a care home and have had to use one in the past for my father. Depending on the amount of savings that the relative has, then they will be able to contribute towards their own care. If the savings diminishes to under the set amount, which I believe is £24k then the council may contribute to care costs. But if there's anything other than what the council will contributing family are expected to contribute, the extra, this is called top-up. They will do an assessment thirst to see how much funding they will give and anything extra is given by the family.

If they are CHC funded then the pension will build up until the until the amount is reached and then the CHA will reassess them to see if they still can pay for the okay these or do they have to start paying for themselves again

I work in a care home and have had to use one in the past for my father. Depending on the amount of savings that the relative has, then they will be able to contribute towards their own care. If the savings diminishes to under the set amount, which I believe is £24k then the council may contribute to care costs. But if there's anything other than what the council will contributing family are expected to contribute, the extra, this is called top-up. They will do an assessment thirst to see how much funding they will give and anything extra is given by the family.

If they are CHC funded then the pension will build up until the until the amount is reached and then the CHA will reassess them to see if they still can pay for the okay these or do they have to start paying for themselves again it's

I’ve said no that’s not happening and it won’t be a better one just the same I assume but they will habe money coming in from various places for each resident it’s not like there are council care home and private ones I assumed the council fund spaces wherever they are ?

Not necessarily.

If you want your parents to go into a home paid for by charity & tax-payers, then there won't be much choice. It'll be the ones that are available & cheap. The basics.

In my LA, the private payers are in the same home as the Local authority so there is no difference in care. Relatives don't have to top up but can, only if they choose, and in a 30 year career of arranging care home, I have only come across 1 relative offering this. They would have to go through thorough financial checks to show they can afford it.

How certain are you of that?
Because they’ll make you sign a contract, which will be legally binding, and it will have an increases clause. Whoever signs up to that is liable for the fee’s.

It sounds like you don't like your PIL very much. You can hear the scorn in your posts that they didn't 'bother' to save up so that you wouldn't be put out.

Do you know that they could have had savings by now and that they deliberately squandered it? Or maybe did they not think to save for this exact scenario when they were younger?

its the person who needs care who has the financial assessment. Not their children or wider family.

Would you pay for yr parents?

State ones are free to the user if they do not have savings or property. If they have property they cannot ask for money until the other registered owner e.g. partner passes away and the house is sold. They are not free to run, they are subsidised by the government.

Every person has to contribute with their pension if they have no assets, which is fair enough as they obviously don't have bills. The person needing the care has to contribute not the relatives.