Justine says MN is too mean and will tighten-up moderation

[noblegiraffe]

Justine posted this on a low-traffic thread in AIBU and I think it deserves a wider audience than it is currently getting, especially as it is asking posters to report low-level sniping and pile-ons. Perhaps a bigger announcement is planned, I don't know.

"Thanks for raising this - it's something we've been discussing internally as we've noticed the same shift you’re describing and we agree it’s something we need to get a much firmer grip on. Debate is part of Mumsnet’s DNA, but unnecessary meanness isn’t, and it helps absolutely no one.
We’ve already put a plan in place to tighten things up. It’s not just about deleting the really obvious personal attacks, but tackling the low-level sniping and pile ons that drain the life out of threads and discourage people from posting in the first place. That means more proactive involvement from us earlier in a thread, not just sweeping up afterwards.
One thing that really helps is reporting. There are around 25,000 posts a day on here, so we really don’t see that much in real time. If something feels off, please do report it. We promise to read things in context and we’d much rather step in early than let a thread spiral.
Most people on here genuinely want to give support or perspective. When that gets drowned out by needless nastiness, everyone loses. So thank you to everyone who’s raised this. We hear you, we agree with you, and we’re working on it."

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5442610-the-current-state-of-mn-and-how-do-i-stop-reading?reply=148524522&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

So being concerned about immigration is goady? It's a genuine concern that many share. It may not be convenient for those politically left of the spectrum but that does not give you the right to veto mumsnetters who want to discuss real issues that we are facing. Please do not silence me.

MN often take a look and come back to say they can't find anything odd but they can only go as far as previous usernames and banned posters. A clever poster can get round that .

They can't (or won't) ban IP addresses? I realise that's far from foolproof anyway. I can't say the vision of MN where posters are too scared to start threads is one I'd recognise, but perhaps it depends on which parts of the site you tend to visit. Continuing troll attacks (which seem to be 24/7 these days, rather than just late at night), which effectively kill off many valuable threads, are far and away the biggest problem IMO.

I think they need to get a grip on the trolls too

or the threads where someone posts and there are hundreds of responses but the OP never comes back. Those threads often descend into vitriol. I think if an OP posts and doesn’t reply within 48 hours it should be deleted.

I also think people should take some responsibility and take a step back and not engage. Nastiness thrives where it’s given attention

I've never used it either. It encourages people to post before reading the whole thread too, and we all know how annoying that can be Plus if you see new to MN, it looks like you're responding to that particular post.

Personally, yes I have, noblegiraffe - especially that threads can stay in "trending" for days where once there was a rapid turnover

I've no idea how many active members the site now has - there are people far cleverer than me who seem to be able to work these things out - but I also wonder about the increasing number of obviously fake, clickbaity posts

We already know HQ don't use AI to create posts because they've said so, but maybe it appeals to others to do it?

With respect, a measured debate probably won't happen in a lot of the discussions that you're engaging in, because you are actually one of the posters that frequently makes comments which feed into the problem that I was describing. It is inevitable that other posters will highlight the problem with these comments, and you will perceive that as people trying to shut the conversation down. I suspect that it may also be the case that certain posters will gain a reputation for posting certain types of content over time, and this may affect the way in which others interact with them even when they are not saying anything offensive.

Strong feelings on either side are fine, there is nothing wrong with a passionate exchange of views. That isn't the issue. I don't know, maybe it is the case that some prejudices are so heavily entrenched that people aren't even aware that they're expressing them.

Agree with all this too, Bruisername, except with obvious begging threads which I believe should go immediately - or at least be hidden until some digging can be done

There is nothing remotely goady about being concerned about immigration.

However, there are lots of posters who post goady content in relation to this issue.

Yes I agree, AS needs to go.

Always found Advanced Search completely useless, I can't see how anyone can get a tune out of it! Searching by topic, rather than folders, seems illogical to me.

I've been here over a decade now but I first noticed a shift in 2016 after the Brexit vote, people were so angry (I know many were IRL too) and it took on an uncomfortably nasty tone overnight. And I say that as a remainer.

Before that everyone seemed to rub along mostly ok, there weren't the mass pile ons or hugely dramatic EastEnders plot style threads. IIRC it kind of settled down to some degree and then COVID happened and sent some people nuclear "oh so your happy killing people are you, just so you can go to the shop and buy essential foods to live on. God you are so selfish and will have blood on your hands" style posts started banding about. And it never fully seems to have recovered.

I strongly disagree that Advanced Search should go. It’s an incredibly useful tool if you’re wondering if someone is trolling. I use it to namecheck someone before I decide to report them. I do understand, however, that posters can change some details about their lives, in order to preserve some anonymity - but sometimes the disparities are just so obvious that you know they’re trolling.

I've been here since 2005 and there has always been an element of nastiness, I well recall finding myself being slagged off on another thread by two of the old MN royalty, one of whom pops up now and then to have another go even after all these years. I find MN less and less rewarding to be involved with because:

1. There are so many comments made by people who have not read the thread, assuming things that have been dealt with by the OP in detail sometimes in the first post.
2. the assumption that earning £200k a year is normal and commonplace.
3. That the possibility of Autism, Dementia, Domestic Violence or the possibility someone is a refugee is the likely cause of whatever is being discussed. I recently l commented on how I feel about houses where there are no books, a bit surprised and a bit sad. it was suggested to me that my friends of 40 years might have hidden their books from sight or night be any or all of the above !
4. We are all human and have our failures, foibles but there is no worse example of humanity than anyone who happens to be male.

I tend to restrict myself to Style and Beauty and those amusing or informative threads about saving money or how often you wash your towels these days. I do report any real nastiness that I see and the comments do get taken down but I agree it is the constant derailing of threads, sniping and clear awkwardness that are now the real problem.

The issue is MN is a business and relies on advertising. The more posts= the more views= the more revenue for MN
Contentious posts usually = more views (ie 'trending')

Also very accurately put, @HottleBottleDays
I don't imagine I'm alone in having noticed that some very vicious threads, which are nevertheless extremely busy, aren't taken down until the responses start to die off

As a related point, Mumsnet needs to take a tougher stance against racism, in particular Anti-Semitism. I have seen a small minority of posters that repeatedly post extremely racist material, which is deleted when reported, but these posters are not banned.

There have also been a number of extremely Anti-Semitic posts that have been allowed to stay up for far too long. This was especially the case after October 7th.

I wish MNHQ would crack down on the racism that is allowed to flourish on the site. I think I may be done with MN after many years here, because of MNHQ’s inability to deal with the constant racism. I have reported obviously racist posts and received bland responses saying they will remove anything that violates their guidelines, while allowing the racism to stand. Which is a pathetic way to weasel out of really addressing the issue. Ableism is nearly as bad as racism on MN, and MNHQ won’t take it seriously either.

If you add all the ridiculous drive-by threads (usually AI-generated, a single post on a controversial topic that the OP never returns to) and the problem of trolls (a perennial issue but one that seems to be getting worse), MN is not the place it once was. I doubt that Justine’s plans for improved moderation will make a significant impact.

I think it should remain as it has saved me so many times from responding to a troll or someone with an agenda that I don’t want to waste my time on.

If people use it to be nasty, then yes, they should be dealt with. I suppose sometimes it is relevant though, when the poster has lied which changes things.

There was a post years ago from a poster who was complaining about their adult child not speaking to them. The OP apparently had no clue why, it was a complete surprise. They got lots of advice, sympathy, asked if adult child could have mental health issues etc which the OP fully leaned into. Then someone posted stuff from the OPs past posts which showed they had done some really awful things to their child in the past, which OP admitted were terrible on the past threads. Within an hour, the thread was deleted as a troll and PBP. In cases like that, AS was really good as people were wasting their time and it did get rid of (yet another) troll!

I agree with @BIWI that it is a useful tool for weeding out less than genuine posters and pbps etc.

Some of the worst threads for this are those about teachers, sadly. Any parent who says anything along the lines of "dc's teacher has done xyz I really don't understand it" gets piled on by dozens every single time. The dozens are made up of teachers and nonteachers. It is bizarre and clearly part of some agenda. NB of course most teachers are great, but there are some who do confusing things and posters should be able to talk about it.

In fact, the problem is agenda areas. And this sometimes makes removing posts difficult as accusations fly. Every time anyone posts about certain subjects there will be a pile on by a group of posters who are clearly wanting to drown out any debate. As well as in relation to teachers, I often see this in relation to Trump vs dems, major world conflict zones, certain high profile financiers, certain vaccinations, rad fem topics, education, grammar, nursery vs sahm, certain parenting subjects, certain world leaders. There are others.

I found the pile ons particularly bad in the run up to last year's general election. Anyone who didn't support Labour was pounced on, usually by the same group of posters.
Some of the bullying and mocking I experienced, and witnessed happening to others was awful.
Parents of privately educated dc have received similar on here too.

And social housing tenants.

It really is, isn't it (speaking as someone who is almost definitely ND albeit without a formal diagnosis). The levels of ignorance defy belief sometimes. Ditto mental health issues - I read something earlier this week that was thankfully deleted very quickly and I'm not going to repeat it here, but it horrified (and depressed) me to think anyone could even think it let alone post it on a forum. I just hope it was a troll out for a reaction and not someone who really thought it. That's happening to me more and more when I read disability/benefit threads recently, though.

The problem is that society has shifted to tribalism - when I was younger you could agree to differ but now if you don’t agree then the other is evil personified

Exactly. I’ve learnt a lot from these threads and there are topics that people are desperate to discuss. I have also observed that some posters will repeatedly claim that there is rampant hatred and racism in a thread but in reality there is just some robust discussion. I guess they want to create a false impression for those who don’t read the full thread.

Agree re your point on a regular source of vitriol - I have been accused of racism for the most ridiculous things ever. Some people just want to shut down conversation.

I know MN is famous, but there's no guarantee that rich and famous people are on here. In fact I'd assume they have lives and interesting things to do in real life and therefore don't come on here and see if people are moaning about them ;)