Justine says MN is too mean and will tighten-up moderation

[noblegiraffe]

Justine posted this on a low-traffic thread in AIBU and I think it deserves a wider audience than it is currently getting, especially as it is asking posters to report low-level sniping and pile-ons. Perhaps a bigger announcement is planned, I don't know.

"Thanks for raising this - it's something we've been discussing internally as we've noticed the same shift you’re describing and we agree it’s something we need to get a much firmer grip on. Debate is part of Mumsnet’s DNA, but unnecessary meanness isn’t, and it helps absolutely no one.
We’ve already put a plan in place to tighten things up. It’s not just about deleting the really obvious personal attacks, but tackling the low-level sniping and pile ons that drain the life out of threads and discourage people from posting in the first place. That means more proactive involvement from us earlier in a thread, not just sweeping up afterwards.
One thing that really helps is reporting. There are around 25,000 posts a day on here, so we really don’t see that much in real time. If something feels off, please do report it. We promise to read things in context and we’d much rather step in early than let a thread spiral.
Most people on here genuinely want to give support or perspective. When that gets drowned out by needless nastiness, everyone loses. So thank you to everyone who’s raised this. We hear you, we agree with you, and we’re working on it."

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5442610-the-current-state-of-mn-and-how-do-i-stop-reading?reply=148524522&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I think this may be the nub of your specific issue OP.

You read that thread and are upset because you saw what you judged to be awful transphobia but then @AlphaApple (and I agree) read it and picked up on the nuance and detail of what was being said and came to a different judgement (below). Maybe people that spend more time on FWR can see these distinctions more easily due to more in depth knowledge of the topic (in this case, the clear link between fetish and identity and the issues of imposing them on children).

Now the posts are deleted there’s no way of proving if there was actual transphobia (do we have a clear definition yet?) or whether MN just erred on the side of caution because you were upset and reporting it.

Except the posts were deleted after I’d read them all. My experience, and that of many others of reading that thread, was horrendous, particularly as everyone else seemed to be ignoring it.

That was your experience though. It clearly wasn’t a universal experience so maybe in this example, it demonstrated that you had not fully understood the points being made? And maybe the lack of objection from others wasn’t because everyone on FWR are hideous transphobes but because the points made were reasonable given the information widely known on this topic?

There is no right not to be offended. I may be misreading you but you seem to be looking for a level of control over everyone else’s speech that isn’t compatible with the concept of free speech. As I said on the other post, if you gave an objection to a particular post, you have the opportunity to challenge it openly on the forum or ask for further clarification from the poster which could then either confirm or correct your understanding.

Asking MN to police everyone’s speech so heavily that there is no risk of offending anyone is not compatible with a productive discussion forum.

AlphaApple “….interesting because I read that thread as well and I thought the posts that suggested autogynaphilia was real provided balance and context to the “be kind” replies. I didn’t read any that said the teacher was definitely a predator/pervert, just that the fetish angle could not be ignored.”

Yes agree that moderating could turn into censorship

and we need to be really careful how things are framed because when you look at politics threads, for example, there is a difference in the way people talk about different leaders. Some people despise a person/party so much they are incapable of seeing any vaguely positive comment about them as bigoted/offensive

A very important point. Definitions and common understanding of those are key in a discussion forum.

I think many issues arise from a lack of clear definitions (obviously a feature rather than a bug on the trans topic). In the wider population and sometimes on here, even the basics are not understood - significant numbers of people don’t know that ‘transwomen’ are male with a gender identity of ‘woman’ and ‘transmen’ are female with a gender identity of ‘man’.

Not having a common understanding of basic terminology leads to much confusion and outrage.

So sometimes it might be the case but not always

Agreed. Which is why I said "often a useful indicator" and not "always a useful indicator".

Have you emailed mnhq to ask? How many posts did you report?

I doubt very much you'd get kicked off for reporting 5 posts.

Eta: maybe there has been some misunderstanding. It really is worth emailing.

Case in point - I made a post on another thread pointing out that slapping a woman on the arse was technically assault. A pedant came back to comment that there was ‘no technically about it’ as it was within the letter of the law.

So I had to reply in words to the effect of that this is what ‘technically’ means… but let’s not let the fact that that OP has been assaulted get in the way of your pedantry. 🤦🏽‍♀️

I agree, MN is probably not for me these days. not been on it for long and have deleted my account and then created a new account a week or so later as there are some lovely fun areas. I think I need to start getting out more or volunteering, I think.

Actually kicked off, not just logged out? What happened when you tried to log in?

No, I’m saying that people have claimed there’s no antisemitism going on while I’ve been reporting Holocaust denial, claims that Jews are controlling the media and our government, claims that Keir Starmer’s Israel policy is being controlled by his Jewish wife and so on. People claim no racism when there is obvious racism. People claim there is no transphobia when, as you can see on this thread, there are assertions that a trans teacher is a pervert bully who is a risk to children just because he is trans. (Words fail me if you cannot see that is transphobic, compared to the old ‘dress how you like, call yourself what you like’).

@noblegiraffe you are misrepresenting what was said on this thread and the other thread. NO ONE has said "a trans teacher is a pervert bully who is a risk to children just because he is trans". Some people point out, factually, that cross-dressing is a paraphilia.

You are undermining your own arguments by saying no one is allowed a counter point of view.

(Also, the irony, you "misgendered" him.)

I think this thread is a good demonstration of how MN has become an intolerant place to be - on all kinds of levels. I suspect MN Ltd will just tinker around the edges and expect posters to be 'kind' to eachother..ignoring the racism, benefits bashing, trolls, bots etc because that would involve time, money and the acceptance that the site has a real problem. I log-out frequently as the site is less useful and enjoyable. I have a child with complex needs - I wouldn't post about him to ask a question or reply to a post (not even on the specialist boards). You can get shot down on SN, TV threads, style and beauty, even Christmas. Then there is the really horrible stuff which I assume are the angry people (emboldened by anonymity), bots, trolls.. What is the point?

I think this thread is a good demonstration of how MN has become an intolerant place to be

Reporting a thread because you don’t like the views expressed on it is hardly a demonstration of tolerance.

I think this thread is a good demonstration of how MN has become an intolerant place to be

How so? It seems pretty civil to me.

@Yorkshireteaandbiscuits you are the poster I am most concerned about, a parent of a child with complex needs who could get enormous value from an online community. For me, those are the priorities to "fix".

I think it does help a little if you automatically slot the really nasty people into the "troll" category. Never underestimate how much men hate women, and how much they might want to undermine a site like Mumsnet, which has the potential to empower and embolden women.

You have probably been suspended rather than banned.

People claim there is no transphobia when, as you can see on this thread, there are assertions that a trans teacher is a pervert bully who is a risk to children just because he is trans.

This is starting to sound like a problem with your interpretation not corresponding with what has actually been said.

No one has said that in this thread or the other one.

Now you are just starting to sound like you want to shut down any views you dislike. That’s not how this works.

There were very much posts which said that on the teacher thread. They were deleted. PPs point still stands; they shouldn't have been posted in the first place, and they went largely unchallenged on the thread itself.

I posted up thread about this. Thank you to both posters for putting up similar thoughts.
I come from a large family of strong feminist women yet I've been sickened by the 'round them up' mentality of certain posters against trans people. One asked me if I had contributed to the test case earlier in the year. I might have but it wasn't her business to ask. I was also called a poor mother and adding to the number of perverts out there.
So if you disagree with their rhetoric you can't debate any other FWR because they are the gatekeepers. Every thread, every day.

Oh, hi. OPs current claim is that this has also been said in this thread which it patently hasn’t (anyone can go and check) so it very much calls into question the accuracy of PPs claims in the other thread. I didn’t see any and now they have been deleted, we’ve only got PP and your words for it.

While you’re here, did you have any more thoughts as to why you called me a racist in a different thread? I may have missed it but I don’t think you ever told me what I had said that you deemed racist and I would like to know. It is not an accusation to make lightly.

I can't speak for PP, but you said it didn't happen in this thread or the other one. It very much did happen in the other thread on FWR.

I don't recall calling you racist (or calling anyone racist), but would be happy to discuss if you can provide a link.

No, I’m not. I’m absolutely not misrepresenting what was said. It was really bad. And the posts were deleted.

Again, if you can’t see that going onto a thread asking how to address a trans teacher and saying that they are a pervert with a fetish is transphobic, then there’s no helping you.

I think sometimes some people spend so much time around people with extreme views that they no longer recognise them as extreme.

That’s your claim though. I dispute your claim.