Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

Well not that nebulous - I have filled in hundreds of PIP forms on behalf of clients. I absolutely support your entitlement to be reimbursed for all those additional expenses.

However, as an example, one of the Descriptors on the application is about being able to dress oneself. If someone can’t deal with eg buttons, zips etc then you say this on the form, that the applicant can only dress themselves with pull on trousers or shoes with Velcro straps for example, in order to meet the criteria for points in that section. Those types of clothes do not necessarily cost more than any other clothes however, so whilst this is an adaptation the applicant needs, one might argue it is not incurring additional costs over those incurred by anyone else.

One further qualifier is the ability or otherwise to prepare a simple meal. Many applicants will say that for a variety of reasons they can only eat microwave ready meals. Again, this is the norm for many who don’t claim PIP, so is it justifiable to cover these expenses?

Another qualifier is the ability or otherwise to use a bath or shower. Many will have had grab rails or walk in showers already installed in their homes. Why does this therefore require further ongoing receipt of funds?

For the avoidance of doubt I believe all those with disabilities should not be disadvantaged financially. But providing a set income with no reference to expenses might not be the best way to achieve this.

But those criteria alone won't score enough for an award

Good luck trying to find adults shoes with velcro. Most only go up to a 3 or 4. I usually end up buying lace up and then buying lock laces.

I know that - they are just a couple of examples I could come up with while having my lunch!

You don't want disabled people to be disadvantaged financially but you are happy to saddle us with hours upon hours a month of complex and unnecessary paperwork. I work full time and have a baby. I do not want to have to spend my evenings filling in forms in order to be reimbursed for essential expenditure incurred as a result of my disability. Also, as I said, I am blind, is the government going to pay someone to help me fill in paperwork? Also, is your suggestion that we pay for these expenditures out of our own pocket and have them reimbursed? What about people who don't have the money to pay these up front costs?
Apart from anything else, your system would be much more expensive to administer than the current one, as thousands of staff would be needed to process claims each month in a timely fashion. So, if your suggestion were implemented, it would save no money but would increase the burden on already over-stretched and stressed disabled people. Apart from that, it's a great plan!
Also, who is going to decide what is a ligitimate expense and what isn't? Not you I hope since you seem to have a very limited understanding of the range of disabilities and how they affect people.

@Everlore I’m positing an alternative way to think about disability benefits in the context of a discussion about that. Of course any change will have costs and admin attached, does that mean no one should even think about an alternative model when the one we have clearly doesn’t work well? And as I’ve said, I do have first hand experience in this field (not as a claimant) over many years.

How much per year are you willing to pay for such a system?

I thought the government wanted to save money. Such a system will do the opposite

I’m one that believes that we should pay more income tax above an income of £200k. Hope that helps.

So how much per year would do you believe you would be paying under your system?

So it's her fault for not pursuing it hard enough then. And that's probably related to her choice of becoming disabled.

Righty ho ....

I did not say that at all. Neither did I say it was her choice to become disabled. But you carry on making complete nonsense up.

I’m surprised it’s only 10%, tbh. Given the number of people I see out and about with disabilities (not even taking account of unseen conditions) I would have thought higher.

Well, the current model works for me, you obviously don't think it does but that's your opinion, not an objective fact and, since you are not in receipt of PIP, I don't think you have much room to comment on its functionality. I mean, the amount is insufficient to cover all my disability related expenses but receiving a fixed monthly sum is far more appealing to me than incurring mountains of extra monthly admin which I would have to complete to get access to necessities. Having a disability already comes with enough extra life admin without adding yet more yards of red tape to our lives.

@everlore it’s possible to debate an issue without making it personal which is what I try to do.

@Simonjt of course I’m not going to be able to answer that question with a number.

On your last point, I was just about to say that the lives of disabled people and their caregivers is already difficult enough without this constant need to justify everything, and the proposal of yet more paperwork.

Our son is under 8 different specialists. All of them require communication, forms to be filled in, meetings to held. For goodness sake don’t make us add monthly expenditure reports that itemise individual, granular level, costs to that ever growing list.

What about a % tax increase, you could use implementation of others services as a bench mark

Funny, isn't it on a thread about disability payments, the nonsense is coming from the disabled ? Not from the endless stream of posters who know everyone in their street is on the fiddle. No, not them.

Saying I have posted things when I haven’t is making up nonsense. That applies whether you are disabled or not. Those who know endless people on the fiddle are also talking nonsense and I have said as much previously.

I’ve already said I believe there should be an additional tax band for incomes over £200k. I don’t know how much this would raise. Do you?

This is just not true in many areas.

I had a fabulous special needs dentist a couple of towns over. It was in a building with stairs and they had a stairlift for wheelchairs and anyone else who needed it. Someone decided the lift wasn’t safe, so rather than buy a new lift or relocate to an accessible building, they closed the practice.

Consequently I haven’t had a dentist for five years. There isn’t another Dental Access centre in my area. There are zero NHS dentists with open waiting lists in my area, let alone one that disabled people can access. This is the reality for many, many people.

If there isn’t suitable provision within the area, people can request a referral out of area. I have done this for others. Not easy, not always agrees without a fight and not quick though. Sometimes home visits are possible too often after a fight and a long wait. People shouldn’t have to fight though. Please note, I am not saying it is your fault or easy or that provision is good enough, it isn’t.

You believe disabled people shouldn't be disadvantaged financially but think it's a good idea for a reimbursement system with no thought as to how disabled people would pay for what they need in the first place if they don't have the money?

It feels like the best way to me. Less paperwork when disabled people already have it coming out of their ears and trusting that the disabled person knows their disability and needs the best.

Especially since it isn't done with child benefit, universal credit etc and people are able to spend it on what they feel is best. Disabled people should get the same respect.

You know about your area. Not everyone lives there.

There are indeed lots of things people "can" do. If they have the time. The mental acuity and the money. Plus a 24/7 advocate who tries their best.

You "could" for example book a black can (because Uber Access aren't everywhere yet) and then be told that all the drivers are the other side of the city so suck it up buttercup, you ain't going to no appointment (obviously non attendance gets you put to the back of the queue).

Mind you that's better than getting to an appointment, coming out, and then being told that your pre-booked ride isn't coming for at least 2 hours during which you are stuck in the doorway of the clinic that cis closing in half an hour.

And that is just for teeth, Add that to eyes, and even a GP appointment and see how much energy you have left over.

And remember this is just to arrange one visit. You have to rinse and repeat the next time. And the next. And the next.

My friend sometimes darkly jokes about committing a crime to get sent to prison.

I support people across the country, not just by filling in forms, but OK you think I only know about my area. The law and rights are the same across the country, too.