Is it possible to have a sensible discussion about disability benefits?

[Pjnow]

According to Google 10% of working age people are in receipt of PIP and 6% of 0-15yos receive DLA.

I'm a proper lefty who believes absolutely in the welfare state, a safety net and that we should care properly for those with disabilities. A society should be judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

However 10% in receipt of disability benefits can't be sustainable. I know many people receiving PIP also work, it's not about that.

I'm just wondering what (if anything) can be done to make sure those who need support get it, without paying it to 10% of the population. I know not all disabilities are visble etc, but 10%?!

Yes, but some posters will continue to give them oxygen, even though it is patently a waste of their time!

I believe in planning not privilege, yes very much so. I think a big part of the problem is the number of people who think they are owed and have a victimhood mentality. People need to have some responsibility for themselves and not expect others to step in and support them or pay for them at every step.

Care for a severely disabled individual costs hundreds of thousands pa. Most people will never be able to afford that no matter how sensible they are, how much they think things through or how much planning they do. That isn’t about ‘victimhood’ or personal responsibility or being owed anything or paying for every step. Being able to plan to fund care for someone with complex disabilities is a privilege.

Interesting how being able to pay for independent reports is privilege but being able to afford far more expensive care is planning not privilege.

This is the problem. If we want to eliminate as much waste from the system as possible, all public spending should be under the spotlight and means all benefits. Pouring more tax into a wasteful system, is criminal.

Amongst those claiming benefits there are definitely some that will never be able to work, some who could work with the right accommodations and some scroungers.

You are right when/if Farge the rich will get richer, gets in those on benefits, those that need the NHS and those who rely on flexible working will be screwed, not just ethnic minorities. It will be difficult to feel any sympathy for them.

I meant to say he can do all this. Live on how own, pay his bills, walk his dog but he can't work. I can't remember how long he's been off work or if he's trying to get a job. We did talk about this. But I can't remember and as I admit I don't have all the facts and I know DWP only award PIP after a rigourous assessment and after proof.

With the best will in the world nobody claiming pip is getting hundreds of thousands of pounds a year from pip. Yes some people who have complex needs cost a lot. I'm not advocating for hydrolic beds, breathing machines or syringe drivers etc to be removed. I'm saying some people claim pip/dla who shouldn't, who exagerate their needs and could get through life without it. Disability benefits need tightening or changing.

Some people will always have more or better than others, that's just life. Paying for private reports in the send system does need looking at- currently there could be two childrem exactly the same but because one family is able to advocate and pay for inde reports and support, they get a much better package of support paid for by the government/ la. That is priviege and it doesn't reflect that the two children have the same needs.

How does one plan to need to give up work and care for their disabled child? There was nothing obvious on the pregnancy scans that the baby was going to be disabled

Do you realise some mental health conditions will be life long and severe ?
I swear so.me posters seem to think mental health issues stop at mild anxiety and depression, and dont take into consideration all the other mental health conditions at all.

I was thinking the same thing. People who are so severely affected by their MH, are never going to be 'cured', as such, but would need ongoing support, throughout their lives, I would have thought. So a 6 week counselling session with Chams, is not going to cut it.

I didn’t say anyone is getting hundreds of thousands in PIP. The point being discussed yesterday and today was wider than PIP.

As I said yesterday, there are ways of securing evidence, including independent reports, without parents funding them themselves. Yes, DC whose parents can advocate get better support, but that isn’t the fault of families who advocate for their DC, those families don’t get anything their DC doesn’t legally reasonably require.

Not on my ds' scans either but his disabilities aren't everyone else's problem or responsibility. The welfare state should be there to step in for those who truly need it but people should help themselves too.

I know a family with five children with varying degree of need and the mum is pregnant again. She's classed as a carer and doesn't work. Why should she be able to have another child who will likely but hopefully not have needs and cost the country money when other families don't expand their family because they can't afford it? The dad doesn't work either.

Those with complex needs aren't generally the ones people begrudge or as a minimum i don't. It's those who could work and those who exagerate.

Ok, education is a wider issue and a big one at the moment. LA's are going bust because of SEND funding. Yes the kids legally require section F but the system cannot continue as it is. Something needs to change (Including LA accountability).

Disability and it's impact does need looking at across the board. We can't continue to pay for it as we are doing.

You can exaggerate all you want but you and I both know you need evidence to back up your claim
As I said previously , on the Facebook groups I'm on I have seen people putting in claims for very tenuous reasons but they rarely get anywhere with them ,they just clog up the system
And dont get me started on those people who think their child qualifies for SMI because they are slightly behind in school
But again they are usually told what SMI is.

Many begrudge those with complex needs receiving support.

There are examples of that on this thread. We have had people saying there shouldn’t be a HRM element, which includes some DC with complex needs. People saying it is about planning, being sensible or thinking things though in relation to care for severely disabled people. People who think having EOTAS/EOTIS is merely about privilege rather than the legal test of DC having needs so complex it is legally inappropriate for provision to be made in a school or college.

Fucking hell. For someone who allegedly has a disabled child, you seem very abelist

The facebook groups wind me up. Some have tips on how to make claims. "Always describe your worst day" is something i see a lot which shouldn't be spouted. They may not live their worst day every day or even the majority of days. In regards to evidence the keep a diary advice or get people to write letters of how they help you, is questionabke and easily bulked out. I think this type of evidence needs removing from consideration completely.

SMI DLA is probably the hardest thing to qualify for given how many tests you have to meet. Yes, i agree people who think their kid should get SMI for working below level is rediculous. It's this attitude that gets me. Trying to shoehorn the persons condition into the criteria to claim. Essentially trying it on to see what they can get.

You have more faith in the system declining chancers than i do. I think people try it on for their own benefit with all sorts of things that are set up to help those who really need it.

As I said previous PIP is not maintainable at the level it’s going at the moment we need to re-define what is classed as having a disability .. and this is why I agreed with the Proposed 4 point rule .. The net has become too wide

@SmellsLikeTeenArmpitgood post.

In an ideal world this conversation wouldn't be required but it is. Removing hrm is an option and it wouldn't really surprise me if they did given the press this week.

EOTAS is very much about privilege. Those who aren't able to advocate would either end up home schooling or settling for local provision. The system should support all children esoecially those who don't have people to fight for them or have people who aren't capable.

You may not like what i've wrote but i'm allowed to have them. You're incredibly nieve if you think conversations like this aren't happening elsewhere. People are increasingly feeling the squeeze and cuts have to be made. I've been in these systems and i can see the waste, what do you think those who don't have any insight think?

No i just think the system is broken and not doing what it is supposed to.

Calling me ableist won't change anything and if anything is part of the problem. Everytime this gets discussed on mumsnet anyone suggesting cuts or changes to the system gets branded ableist in a bid to shut them down.

Yeah I agree about the ' evidence" that includes letters from relatives ,friends etc but i would think a decision maker would mainly discount it as its not professional evidence.

If you think it is acceptable for HRM DLA to be removed, you do begrudge the support provided for those with complex needs. People who didn’t begrudge this, wouldn’t think it was acceptable to remove HRM.

The system should support all children esoecially those who don't have people to fight for them or have people who aren't capable.

I agree, I have said as much, but people don’t get provision their DC don’t reasonably require/legally entitled to. Having EOTAS/EOTIS doesn’t mean their DC doesn’t meet the legal test and it doesn’t mean they don’t have complex needs. My point about privilege was your contradiction that being able to afford independent assessment is privilege but being able to afford care, which is far more expensive, is planning, being sensible and thinking things through.

I have not said you can’t think what you want. I am not naive. I think it is disgusting people begrudge those with complex needs support.

But again hsving a disability doesn't guarantee someone will qualify for DLA/PIP it's how that disability impacts a person
And what does your proposed 4 point rule look like ?

There was someone on Reddit in the week trying to get pip for ADHD ego worked part time as a teacher. They were trying to get enhanced mobility (for disabilities that don't affect walking, you have to prove you need help with familiar journeys because for example, you can't see well enough or have no understanding of danger, etc) because they were constantly late to work because of "time blindness" and their habit of forgetting things

I can walk out of the house and forget things due to my complex neurological disability. It had never occurred to me that it was relevant to my mobility claim

My friend's son had a form of cancer that resulted in a through the knee amputation (as well as many rounds of chemo). He was awarded DLA. When it came up for renewal 3 years later, he was awarded zero for Care and Mobility. He's also under CAMHS as he he struggles a lot with anxiety and trauma from it all. The prosthetic service isn't great and there's been significant periods when he's without it. He's too embarrassed to use his wheelchair at school, so is absent when that happens.

I guess many posters on here will be cheered to read such a decision 🙄