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Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

1000 replies

MagicFox · 17/10/2025 22:11

Well, it’s thread 59.

Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

D. Please keep on topic

OP posts:
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441
Southernecho · 21/11/2025 06:59

If rumours are to be believed, Russia gets to have all of the Donbas and all the territory it has ceased, Crimea recognised as Russian, Russia back in the G7.

Ukraine gets to halve its military, no access to many types of weapons, no to ever being in NATO.

All this from the Trump administration, may as well of asked Putin to write it, perhaps he did.

I hope Europe realises it cannot agree to any of this but then what?

Ukraine cannot win or even hold the Russians without US weapons.

LlttledrummergirI · 21/11/2025 08:10

To even present something like this, from America I think Trump has got to be one of the stupidest people ever to walk the earth. Those that put him in a position where he could even get anywhere near the presidency should be ashamed.

Trump hs damaged the World massively but his betrayal of Ukraine and Europe is something else.

Putin must be laughing hard.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 09:11

It's rumours; let's see what really is in this proposal first.

But yes, Putin has Trump under his thumb so it seems unlikely to be good news. Quite apart from his relationship with Trump, at this point slowly Russia is progressing and it's been repeatedly said that Putin is fed over-optimistic reports by his generals so he probably thinks things are going even better than they are. So why would he settle for anything other than something seriously in his favour?

The US was more than happy to be the leader of the Western world and the rest of the Western world fell down badly on being self-reliant, apart from prescient France, and now ... Oh shit.

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2025 09:36

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly1ypqlle0o

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky says he is ready to work with the US on "their vision" for ending the war with Russia.

DdraigGoch · 21/11/2025 09:39

PerkingFaintly · 15/11/2025 14:18

Ukraine’s military intelligence (HUR) has blown up a railway line in Russia’s Far East.
The operation was carried out yesterday near the village of Sosnovka in the Khabarovsk region — about 25 km from the Russian–Chinese border.
The explosion on the Trans-Siberian Railway derailed a freight train and damaged the tracks, blocking cargo movement along the line.
▪️The Trans-Siberian Railway is a key Russian transport artery connecting Moscow with Vladivostok. It is used to move weapons and ammunition, including supplies originating from North Korea.

Good good.

Though I seem to remember from WW2 reading that bombing railway lines was of limited use unless you could do so in a place/way that made the track difficult to repair.

I'd be pleased to hear this thread's experts' opinions on this.

(Obviously I understand that sometimes there's a particular shipment one wishes to destroy/obstruct.)

I'm a bit late to this but the best option is to blow up pointwork. It's more expensive to replace and may require a wait for parts. If there's a train going over it at the time, even better. Bridges and tunnels are good targets too, and if you can do it in a cutting the explosion will be more powerful. Plain track is very easy to repair and you might not even derailment anything - see this WWII experiment by the US Army:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/agznZBiK_Bs?si=VukAdgWFIekviLm_

notimagain · 21/11/2025 09:59

Yep, if the opposition has a decent battle damage repair capability plain track isn't likely to stay cut for long..going after points might be better.

One of the problems with dropping bridges and tunnels is it's very hard to do without precision guided weapons and/or lots of HE - (as an example have a look at what took to take out the Paul Doumer bridge outside Hanoi)...I'm not sure the Ukrainian Armed Forces have got the capability to do enough of that.

At a partisan/commando level possibly the best bet is to go after the rolling stock, especially locomotives.

PerkingFaintly · 21/11/2025 11:10

That vid of WWII rail experiments is absolutely fascinating, @DdraigGoch !

The carriage's other wheels and also the other carriages support the wheel hanging over the gap in the rails, and momentum keeps it all literally on the straight and narrow.

Overall the train clings to the track to an astonishing degree.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:04

I suppose the best option that doesn't involve accepting Trump and Putin's toilet proposal is for the EU to keep supporting Ukraine and to hope that Russia's economy falls apart.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:10

Kyiv Independent Telegram Highlights

⚡️ Ukraine says Zelensky receives US draft plan (kyivindependent.com/us-pushes-ukraine-toward-capitulation-to-russia/) to restart peace talks.
Zelensky plans to discuss the available diplomatic options and the key elements needed to achieve peace with U.S. President Donald Trump.

⚡️ Update: Ukraine peace talks with 'aggressive' timeline (kyivindependent.com/us-pushes-ukraine-toward-capitulation-to-russia/) due to worsening energy situation, source says
The Kyiv Independent has learned from a senior U.S. official that the negotiations are being treated as urgent due to Ukraine's worsening energy situation.

⚡️ Ukraine war latest live (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-11-20/): Poland to join PURL initiative.
Poland will will join the PURL initiative and provide $100 million for the urgent purchase of U.S. weapons for Ukraine, Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski said on Nov. 20.

⚡️'Cheap provocations' — Ukraine denies (https://kyivindependent.com/cheap-provocations-ukraine-denies-russias-claim-that-it-has-captured-kupiansk-as-fighting-remains-ongoing/) Russia's claim that it has captured Kupiansk, as fighting continues.
Ukraine's General Staff denied claims made by the chief of the General Staff of the Russian army, Valery Gerasimov, that Russian forces have captured the city of Kupiansk on Nov. 20

⚡️Ukrainian suspect in Nord Stream sabotage case to be extradited (kyivindependent.com/ukrainian-suspect-in-nord-stream-sabotage-case-to-be-extradited-to-germany-within-10-days-official-says/) to Germany within 10 days, official says.
A Ukrainian national is expected to be extradited to Germany within 10 days over suspected involvement in the 2022 sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipelines, Ukraine's Human Rights Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets said on Telegram on Nov. 20.
Late on Nov. 19, Italy's Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling in favor of extraditing the suspect, Serhii Kuznetsov.

⚡️Former asset recovery chief seen near money laundering (kyivindependent.com/ex-head-of-ukraines-asset-recovery-agency-visited-alleged-money-laundering-office-investigative-journalists-say/) office used in Ukraine's biggest graft case, news outlet says.
Olena Duma, then head of Ukraine's Asset Recovery and Management Agency (ARMA), went in May to the building where an alleged money laundering "back office" was located, media outlet Ukrainska Pravda reported on Nov. 20.
Under Duma's leadership, the ARMA allegedly allowed then Energy Minister Herman Halushchenko to live in the confiscated house of a minister who served under pro-Russian ex-President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainska Pravda reported, citing law enforcement sources.

⚡️ Ukraine war latest live (kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-11-20/): US volunteer, Ukrainian journalist injured in Russian drone attack near Lyman, Donetsk Oblast.

⚡️ Death toll in devastating Russian attack on Ternopil rises to 27 (kyivindependent.com/rescue-efforts-continue-for-second-day-after-russian-strike-in-western-ternopil-22-remain-26-killed/).
Around 20 people are still unaccounted for.

⚡️Russian overnight attack (kyivindependent.com/russian-overnight-attack-on-zaporizhzhia-kills-5-injures-8/) on Zaporizhzhia kills 5, injures 8.
Russian forces launched an overnight attack on the city of Zaporizhzhia on Nov. 20-21, killing five people and wounding eight others, local officials said. KAB guided bombs were reportedly used in the attack.

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦
‪@ragnarbjartur.bsky.social‬
⚡️ WAR IN UKRAINE & RUSSIA — NOV 21, 2025
■ Casualties above the 7-day average despite fewer engagements
■ Equipment losses below average, with relatively few drone losses
■ Overnight attacks: triple-digit, all drones; decent interception rate
■ MLRS strikes are down, while air strikes are slightly above average; two 🇺🇦 strikes reported

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:17

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

🇩🇪🇺🇦 Merz said that Ukraine will receive long-range missiles
“For several months, we have been working intensively with the Ukrainian government on projects we technically call ‘long-range fire support.’ The Ukrainian army will be equipped with such weapon systems,” the German Chancellor said.
According to him, Kyiv will continue receiving long-range weapons in the coming weeks and months, “until such systems are produced in Ukraine itself.”
It remains unclear whether this refers specifically to Taurus missiles or to long-range weapons from allied countries in general.

U.S. sanctions on Russia’s largest oil companies take effect this Friday, but traders expect they will have little impact, Bloomberg reports.
About 50 million barrels of Russian oil from Rosneft and Lukoil are already loaded or in transit and will not reach ports or buyers before the sanctions take effect on November 21.
This oil will likely be sold at deep discounts, but it is expected to eventually find buyers.

🇪🇺🇺🇦 Kallas outlined the European plan for peace in Ukraine, which consists of two points.
“The EU has a very clear plan with two points. First, to weaken Russia. Second, to support Ukraine. Russia has repeatedly and hypocritically spoken about peace talks, and previous negotiations failed because Russia never made any real commitments. The pressure should be on the aggressor, not the victim,” said the EU High Representative, Kaja Kallas.

🇪🇺 The EU is considering new sanctions against Russia’s “shadow fleet,” Bloomberg reports.
EU foreign ministers are meeting in Brussels today, sources told the outlet.
“We will discuss what else we can do about the shadow fleet, because it really affects Russia’s revenues to finance this war,” said EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas.
According to a document circulated before the meeting, Poland proposed new rules and coordinated efforts, including allowing authorities to board vessels. The EU has also held talks with “flag states,” convincing many to deregister ships used by Russia.
The new measures could become part of the EU’s 20th sanctions package, the sources said.

🛢️ Indian corporation Reliance Industries has stopped importing Russian oil to its Jamnagar refinery in Gujarat, effective November 20.

Five people were injured in the overnight shelling of Odesa, including a child, reported regional military administration head Oleh Kiper.

😐 EU imports from Russia have exceeded aid to Ukraine by €124 billion since the start of the full-scale invasion, says Swedish Foreign Minister Maria Malmør Stenergård.
According to her, Europe has provided €187 billion in support to Ukraine, while imports of oil and other goods from Russia have reached €311 billion.
“This is nothing short of disgraceful. There will be no meaningful peace talks unless we increase support for Ukraine and pressure on Russia,” she said.

Britain to make its own drones and explosives: New military factory opens in Plymouth — BBC
A new factory producing naval and underwater drones began operating in Plymouth on Wednesday, November 19. The opening was attended by UK Defense Secretary John Healy.
The Plymouth facility is one of two drone factories launching this week, with another opening in Swindon. Both sites are part of a broader industrial program aimed at strengthening the UK’s security through expanded domestic production of both traditional and advanced weaponry.
“We must innovate because technology is changing the nature of warfare faster than at any other time in human history. Alongside the traditional production of aircraft, ships, and ammunition, we will expand new manufacturing — drones and artificial intelligence — to give the British Armed Forces an advantage on the battlefield,” Healy said.
Earlier, the Ministry of Defense reported selecting at least 13 locations across Scotland, Wales, and England for future “factories of the future,” where ammunition and explosives will be produced for the needs of the British defense sector.
The UK has not produced explosives domestically for the past 20 years, relying instead on foreign suppliers. The new facilities, part of the strategy to boost domestic defense production, are expected to increase the country’s combat readiness and create around 1,000 jobs.
The government aims to have at least six new factories operational by the next election in 2029, with construction of the first expected to begin in 2026.
The opening came just hours after members of the British Parliament published a report criticizing the current state of the country’s defense system.
According to the parliamentary defense committee, the UK has no comprehensive plan to protect its territory from armed attack. The report states that the country is “far from” achieving the capability needed to defend itself and its allies, especially at a time of “significant” security threats in Europe.
It further notes that the UK is failing to meet its NATO commitments and is “significantly falling short of its stated leadership position.”

[yesterday] 1,000 bodies were returned to Ukraine, which, according to the Russian side, belong to Ukrainian soldiers, the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War reported.
All necessary examinations will be carried out soon to identify the deceased.

Death toll from Russian strike in Ternopil rises to 31
Rescuers have recovered three more bodies from the rubble of the destroyed building, the National Police reported.
Identification of the dead and the search for missing people continue.

Ukraine joins COP30 in Belém, Brazil, with a national pavilion symbolizing a time capsule of hope for recovery.
From November 11 to 21, Ukrainian delegates spotlight climate policy, forest and biodiversity protection, war-inflicted environmental damage, food security, and green recovery.

Ukrainian ethno-group DakhaBrakha releases “Dytyatochko” (“Little Child”), a haunting lullaby about children illegally deported by Russia. Filmed at Kyiv’s St. Sophia Cathedral against the “Black Cloud” installation, it blends folk vocals and raw emotion to give voice to Ukraine’s youngest victims. A powerful act of cultural resistance, reminding the world: these are not statistics. https://t.me/United24media/37434

🇺🇦🎮 Ukrainian indie game Tukoni has received a prestigious international award for its visual style
Tukoni: Forest Keepers won in the “Excellence in Visual Art” category at the DevGAMM Awards 2025.
The game was created by Dream Operator and is based on the universe of artist Oksana Bula. Players explore a fairy-tale forest, help animals, and solve puzzles.
The full release is planned for 2026, and the demo is already available on Steam.
🇺🇦🏅 Ukrainian athletes won three medals in orienteering at the 2025 Deaflympics in Tokyo.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:26

Kyiv Post Telegram Highlights

Zelensky has received a peace plan (www.kyivpost.com/post/64641) draft from the US and will speak with Trump in the coming days.

“The U.S. presented their plan. I outlined what is fundamental for us. We will not make any harsh statements. In the coming days, I will speak with Trump — we don’t want to lose the opportunity the U.S. can genuinely provide to bring peace closer,” said Zelensky.
“The U.S. is capable of forcing Russia to end the war. I will work on this 100%. Ukraine will do everything so that no one can say we are sabotaging diplomacy,” the President added.

The European Union rejects the U.S. plan, which envisages giving up territory and imposing numerical limits on Ukraine’s Armed Forces, Reuters reports.

President Zelensky and Donald Trump will discuss a peace plan next week, Sky News reports.

Ukraine has reportedly removed a key clause (www.kyivpost.com/post/64686) from Washington’s controversial peace proposal — the one that would have required full audits of all international assistance.
The new version replaces it with amnesty for all parties for wartime actions.

“The proposed settlement is NOT a settlement and could shatter US-Ukraine relations,” (www.kyivpost.com/post/64663) former State Department special adviser and CIA analyst, Paul Goble, said in an interview with Kyiv Post.

A former State Department adviser and CIA analyst, believes that the key flaw in Trump’s proposed peace plan is the assumption that stopping the fighting will automatically lead to resolving the conflict. (https://www.kyivpost.com/post/64663)

Putin told his top general he did a great job. Russian state television reported a big victory. But did it actually happen? (www.kyivpost.com/post/64692)

Russia’s missile strikes on Ukraine’s power grid forced 4 of 9 nuclear reactors to reduce output, (www.kyivpost.com/post/64615) the IAEA says.
Cutting external power raises the risk of a major nuclear incident — even without a direct strike.

A warehouse belonging to the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) was damaged during a Russian drone attack on Dnipro, Ukrainian authorities reported. The facility stored humanitarian food supplies intended for civilians. Extent of the destruction is being assessed

Ukraine has issued the first-ever Notice of Suspicion against a Russian commander (www.kyivpost.com/post/64607) for coordinated war crimes committed in Bucha during its occupation, Global Rights Compliance told Kyiv Post.

In Ternopil, Ukrainian rescuers found a surviving parrot amid the rubble of a 9‑story apartment building struck by a Russian missile.
Rescue operations continue at the scene of the strike, where 26 people have been confirmed dead and crews are still searching for 22 more.

The bodies of two children and a woman were pulled from the rubble in Ternopil. The death toll has now risen to 31.
Rescuers are still clearing the debris.
Search operations continue. (www.kyivpost.com/post/64679)

Fatal Flaw: Ex-CIA Analyst Says Trump’s ‘Peace Plan’ Will Backfire, Poison US–Kyiv Ties

In an interview with Kyiv Post, former State Department special adviser and CIA analyst Paul Goble warns that “the proposed settlement is not a settlement” and could shatter US-Ukraine relations.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/64663)

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:32

Live: Ukraine Telegram Highlights Thread

🇺🇸The United States is pressing for Ukraine to sign the “peace plan” by Thanksgiving next Thursday, according to the Financial Times, which cites multiple sources.
The Trump administration has told President Zelensky and his team that the White House is working on an “aggressive” timetable to finalize the agreement by the end of the year.
Sources told the newspaper that Washington expects to present the proposal to Moscow this month and complete the process in early December.
According to the FT, this timeline appears “highly unlikely,” as Zelensky’s office has said that several provisions are unacceptable to Kyiv.

❗️President Zelensky has received a draft of the American peace plan, the Office of the President reported.
During a meeting with U.S. Army Secretary Dan Driscoll and Army Chief of Staff General Randy George, the parties agreed to continue working on the plan.
Earlier this morning, The Telegraph published the reported key points of the proposal, based on information from its sources:
🔴Russia would retain control of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, while the territory would legally remain part of Ukraine. Moscow would pay for “renting” them;
🔴Ukraine would have to cut its army in half, give up long-range weapons, and refrain from hosting foreign troops on its soil;
🔴The Russian language and the Russian Orthodox Church would receive official status in the occupied territories;
🔴Ukraine would receive “security guarantees” from the U.S. and Europe.
Bloomberg previously reported that the plan also includes lifting sanctions on Russia and halting investigations into Russian war crimes.

💡Three Ukrainian nuclear power plants have reduced electricity output following Russian attacks, triggering widespread power cuts across the country.
According to the IAEA, the Khmelnytskyi and Rivne nuclear plants had already cut production earlier this month due to ongoing hostilities. On 19 November, both facilities reduced output even further after losing connection to one of their power transmission lines. The South Ukraine Nuclear Power Plant also lost access to a high-voltage line.
On the morning of 20 November, the Ministry of Energy reported fresh Russian strikes on energy infrastructure in the Chernihiv, Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, and Kharkiv regions.
As a result, Ukraine implemented longer-than-usual rolling blackouts throughout the day. By around 15:00, Ukrenergo announced emergency shutdowns across almost the entire country, suspending regular outage schedules.

Defense forces have struck the Ryazan oil refinery once again, igniting a fire.
The attack occurred during the night of 20 November, and the extent of the damage is still being assessed.

Poland’s ambassador to Russia, Krzysztof Krajewski, was attacked in Saint Petersburg.
A source from Wyborcza.pl says the incident took place on Sunday, 16 November, when the ambassador was scheduled to meet members of the Polish community on the occasion of Poland’s Independence Day.
Around midday, he was surrounded by a group of Russians shouting anti-Polish and anti-Ukrainian slogans.
According to the Foreign Ministry’s spokesperson, the incident began with verbal abuse and then escalated into an attempt to use physical force. The ambassador’s security intervened.
Poland has formally expressed its outrage to Russia.

US Vice President commented on Trump’s approach to foreign policy by saying: “Why don’t you stop killing each other and start trading with each other? Why aren’t Russia and Ukraine engaging in more active trade relations and travel between the two countries for cultural exchange, for example? [Oh let's see, because Putin doesn't want to?]

DdraigGoch · 21/11/2025 13:03

notimagain · 21/11/2025 09:59

Yep, if the opposition has a decent battle damage repair capability plain track isn't likely to stay cut for long..going after points might be better.

One of the problems with dropping bridges and tunnels is it's very hard to do without precision guided weapons and/or lots of HE - (as an example have a look at what took to take out the Paul Doumer bridge outside Hanoi)...I'm not sure the Ukrainian Armed Forces have got the capability to do enough of that.

At a partisan/commando level possibly the best bet is to go after the rolling stock, especially locomotives.

I wasn't thinking of going for the structure of a tunnel, you'll need a big bang there. More that if you're going to try to derail a train, recovery will be much more difficult in a tunnel.

Interesting article on how the SOE conducted rail sabotage in WWII.
armourersbench.com/2020/08/09/soe-sabotage-rail-charge/

notimagain · 21/11/2025 13:06

@DdraigGoch

Ah, makes sense and thanks for the link.

PerkingFaintly · 21/11/2025 13:33

US Vice President commented on Trump’s approach to foreign policy by saying: “Why don’t you stop killing each other and start trading with each other? Why aren’t Russia and Ukraine engaging in more active trade relations and travel between the two countries for cultural exchange, for example?

<headdesk>

Did JD Vance read the Ladybird Book of Countries Getting Along and is now regurgitating page 2 or something?

The president of Ukraine is an actual first-language Russian-speaker, like many other Ukrainians. Ukraine was part of the USSR until 1991. Russia's culture is founded on Kyivan Rus, and Russia is now trying to eliminate separate Ukrainian culture by kidnapping its children and re-educating them into being Russian.

The problem is not lack of cultural exchange between Ukraine and Russia. It's that Russia is dropping high explosive on most of the Ukrainian population.

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2025 13:38

Why don't you stop killing each other

Easy solution JD, Russia retreats and stops the war.

LlttledrummergirI · 21/11/2025 14:34

Fuck me, thats what passes for leadership!

I have no words.

DdraigGoch · 21/11/2025 17:56

I ‘kin hate Trump and his weak entourage.

Every day a man walks into a newsagent, picks up a paper, looks at the front page, returns it in disgust and walks out. After a while, the shop assistant asks him why.

"I'm looking for an obituary "
"But obituaries aren't on the front page"
"The one I'm waiting for will be"

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2025 18:34

Nathan Gill sentenced to 10.5 years in prison for pro Russia bribery

The police are further investigating former British MEPs who were tasked by Nathan Gill on behalf of his handler

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/21/world/europe/reform-uk-nathan-gill-russia-bribes.html?unlocked_article_code=1.208.hnnp.GDlyn0FGGxt6&smid=url-share

Southernecho · 21/11/2025 18:39

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 21/11/2025 12:04

I suppose the best option that doesn't involve accepting Trump and Putin's toilet proposal is for the EU to keep supporting Ukraine and to hope that Russia's economy falls apart.

Apparently, if they don't accept, the US stops all intel sharing and stops selling weapons to other NATO countries to supply Ukraine.

The US is showing it sees NATO as a European military alliance & nothing to do with them.

Sucking up to Trump has achieved nothing, nothing at all, or as one commentator said "Let Trump punch you in the face once and he'll keep doing it"

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/11/2025 18:55

I thought NATO and the EU had already stopped intel sharing with the USA, or was that only a rumour?

MMBaranova · 21/11/2025 18:59

The Putin - Putin proposals are really something.

DdraigGoch · 21/11/2025 19:00

and stops selling weapons to other NATO countries to supply Ukraine.

Better get the DIB breathing down Trump's neck then. Unless he's promising big contracts for them when he invades Venezuela.

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