Being ‘normal’ vs aiming for Oxford

[Skpt]

DD is 6 weeks into year 12 and struggling with the absurd workload she has given herself. 4 fairly hefty A Levels, learning two instruments, one at diploma level, one grade 6 ish which she plays in the city’s youth orchestra, a job she goes to one weekday evening and one weekend afternoon, and currently a group project for a trip she is taking in a few weeks. She also is attempting to continue with a reasonable social life including a relatively new boyfriend.

It’s hard to say what’s causing her the most stress at the moment. The group project is taking up most of her time (and I was a bit cross to find out that the others in her group are not spending anywhere near as much time on it outside of school as she is). The stress this evening is because she feels out of her depth in the orchestra, which could be easily remedied by actually practicing, but she isn’t making the time to do that.

The Oxford question came up because I pointed out that once the trip was over she would have much more headspace, but she was insistent that she while she was coping easily with her school work now, it will inevitably become much much harder and she feels she can’t relax in year 12 because she wants to get top grades and apply for Oxford and she will really have to put the work in this year to do that.

So, we had a big talk about priorities, and how if she wants to aim for Oxford she really needs to know why, beyond the general expectation of her friends and her teachers, and how if she decides it is what she wants then she will probably need to sacrifice some of her current extracurricular activities to focus on her school work and the ‘supra-curricular’ stuff in the subject she wants to study.

BUT that if she decides she doesn’t want Oxford and all the stress of that, then it is perfectly valid to ease off the throttle on her studies to make space for her music and her friends and earning money to save up for the trip she wants to take after her A levels. Basically a more ‘normal’ teenage life and aim for a more ‘normal’ university.

By the end of the conversation she had talked herself into quitting orchestra and her second instrument and also out of applying to Oxford!

Which is fine as a final choice, but I feel just like I wanted to her to really know why she did want to apply to Oxford, I want her to make a fully informed choice not to apply, so she can bat away pressure from friends etc.

Sorry, very long post, I’m using mumsnet to get my thoughts in order 🙄, not entirely sure what my question is now…

Anyone make anything of all of that?

Why is she doing 4 A levels? You don't say which subjects.
You don't need 4 to aim for Oxford.

I wouldn’t be encouraging any child to put less effort into studying a levels. Especially only a couple of months into year 12.

all very well if she listens to you and comes out with ok grades not so good if she listens to you and comes out with bad grades.

she probably is trying to do too much but she’ll work that out for herself.

I would look into dropping 4th A level as she seems overloaded and anything she's not interested in.

There is no need to do four hefty A levels, including for Oxford, unless it's a particular stem course which requires further maths. Personally I'm happy for mine not to work but I appreciate this may be important in some families and if she is saving for something in particular. I don't see much point in keeping up the instruments unless she loves playing, which she maybe doesn't if not practising much. Ds has just started at Oxford and didn't spend huge amounts of time on the supra curricular stuff until the summer after Y12 beyond just having a passion for his subject and reading (but not hours a day or even week) or watching related videos - again, more as a hobby and not hugely time consuming. The social stuff is important to keep up, boyfriend or not.

This.

The actual grades she'll need to get into Oxford are basically the same grades she'll need to get into any top university. If she takes her foot off the gas at this point in time she might find herself not getting good enough grades to go to any of her top choices.

If she needs to bin something off, I'd suggest the group project and the part time job.

It sounds like she’s doing far too much. I think the two instruments on top of 4(!) A levels is far too time consuming. She needs to drop an instrument (or both) and/or one of the A levels if she’s this stressed and it’s only year 12.

I had a lot of PT jobs on top of school and study, as we needed the money, but I got a place at Oxford without a single extracurricular anything.

So much to resolve there.

why is she learning two instruments now.

who are these friends ! With such expectations?

Why is a group trip falling on her?

She sounds like a lovely person being pulled in multiple directions.

Also, she doesn't "need to know why" she wants to apply to Oxford.

It's perfectly fine to just have a crack at it, see whether you get an offer, and if you do, decide whether you want to take it.

The reason "why" you would want to go to Oxford is that it's a world class university. But it's also perfectly fine if you don't get in or if you choose to go somewhere else.

You're coming across like you've talked her out of joining a convent or climbing Mount Everest.

I'd say it's far more important to understand why you want to study your chosen subject than it is to understand why you want to study at a particular university.

Why does she feel an expectation from others to apply to Oxford? Did she easily get all top grades at GCSE, so they think therefore that she should want to try and get in?

Sounds like she needs to prioritise. She’s clearly very able. So she can do really well. But not at everything. Personally, I would probably advise her to prioritise schoolwork and social life, and drop everything else.

I went to Oxford, as probably did several other people on this thread. Unless she’s applying for music they won’t care about her instruments. Maybe if she drops those, and gets this trip out of the way, her life will be more manageable and come September next year she can make a considered decision about whether to apply.

Tell her not to make snap decisions, and ask her to reflect on what she enjoys outside of A levels. She will need to get good grades for uni in most subjects. If 4 A levels is too hard, consider dropping one. They usually are quite happy to do this early on in Y12. The college mine went from encouraging kids to start 4 snd maybe drop one to checking they would accept them on 4 different subjects. DD did but workload was not too bad as she had one that was coursework heavy and one that did an early exam. Also worth mentioning that they encouraged parents to ensure kids pt jobs did not exceed 8hrs pw as evidence shows longer impacts final results.

Drop one A level and one instrument and see how she goes.

To answer a few questions:

A levels are Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Music. She says at the moment music a level is a nice break from the other subjects but that she knows if she has to drop one it’ll be that, she just doesn’t want to (yet).

She got eight 9s, an 8 and a 7 in GCSEs, plus an earlier 9 she took in year 10. She is at an above average state school, so while there were others in her year with similar, and better, results, there weren’t many.

She seems to have been particularly shaken up by a close friend saying she ‘couldn’t imagine’ her going to Sheffield University. We are going to the open day tomorrow. She has had teachers telling her she is amazing her entire school career. Literally the first words out of her reception teacher’s mouth at her very first parent’s evening were ‘she’s amazing’.
Obviously all very lovely to hear as a parent, but she is feeling the weight of expectation a bit at the moment.

I agree with PPs suggesting she drop one of her A levels. Can she also drop one instrument?

If the group project is for a trip she'sctaking soon, that will be another thing off her plate.

Can she drop the job during term time, and just work in the summer holidays?

Easing off on studying isn't a good idea - she'll need high grades for any good university, not just Oxford.

Whether she decides to apply for Oxford depends to an extent on what she wants to study and what she wants to do after uni eg. if it's engineering, Imperial College might be the best place. It also depends on how she learns - would the high pressure, short terms suit her?

Music is a hard A-level to get a top grade in because you have to be good at performing, composing, theory and essay writing. I did 4 A-levels including music, and that was the subject that took up most of my time. I got As in my other subjects without too much difficulty but music was the toughest one by far.

By easing off on the studying I don’t mean forever, I just thought she could maybe breathe a bit at the moment, but she seems to have jumped straight back in with the intensity she had going on right before her GCSE exams.
And maybe not set the expectation at four A stars…

I was your DD, give or take.
What worked for me was getting a summer job but not working during the year. I also didn't have any love interests (not good or bad, just not interested), and tbh most of my social life was through orchestra and music, rather than being a separate thing to juggle. I did occasionally go round to friends' houses, but mostly in yr13 once some of them could drive because we all lived in different directions. It was both helpful and unhelpful that most of my friendship group was aiming for Oxbridge. Helpful because we all had high goals, unhelpful because we probably stressed each other out!
I dropped A level music after year 12 (back when ASs were still a thing) to focus on my diploma and my other subjects. I would probably have dropped the A level over my second study instrument, especially if that instrument had been the one I played in orchestra (see above re my social life!).
It's a tricky balance, because if she does apply for and get into Oxford, then all this juggling will stand her in good stead to manage the workload and the extracurriculars/ social life. On the other hand, that's two years off and she doesn't need the maturity at 16 that she'll have at 18/19.
If she's aiming for all A stars, that's great; maybe the solution is to help her to see it as not the be-all-and-end-all, rather than discouraging her from aiming for top grades and unis per se. I know I put a lot of pressure on myself especially in year 13 and it probably didn't help my mental health in the long run. Did help my degree and career prospects though....

She sounds a bit all over the place, and as though her efforts are very dispersed. You haven’t said anywhere what degree she wants to study for, and whether it’s even available in the form she wants at Oxford.

What anyone else’s expectations of her are, are irrelevant. If she’s over-dependent on external validation, or accustomed to being the best in school/college, she may find Oxford, where she may discover she’s entirely average for her cohort, a struggle.

She should focus on what she really wants, and try to set aside what anyone else thinks about what she should be doing.

DS's sixth form is one of the top state schools in the UK. Most kids only take 3 A Levels. They put up a lot of Oxbridge candidates and run preparation classes for the entrance tests etc. Aside from these classes and being what's known as an 'early applicant' they are not so much Oxbridge candidates more Russell Group applicants. The school is very helpful with navigating applications. The meeting for parents and students was quite clear that they expect all insurance offers to not be Russell Group.

As regards extra curricular, it's useful morris than a part time job

it probably didn't help my mental health in the long run. Did help my degree and career prospects though....

Well that just about sums it up 😬😂

Sorry!
FWIW overall I had a great time at Oxford and developed as a thinker there more than I probably would've done at other unis, because the teaching style very much suited me. I actually got over the perfectionism I struggled with at sixth form, because there was simply too much work to worry about getting everything right.

Why don't you think Oxford is a normal university @Skpt?

My dd did it with 3 A'Levels. Also a musical child but instead of a 4th A'Level she did grade 8 voice and set her instrument aside.

The needs to prioritise and perhaps forget the paid jobs, boyfrirends, projects and holidays. She can have it all in future but probably not right now if she wants the world to be her oyster.

It’s not obvious that she should know why she is aiming for Oxford or that she needs to drop something.

she’s certainly right about at least maths a level as it begins fairly tamely and ramps up very quickly in difficulty once you hit Christmas. It’s also hard to get high grades in because so many further maths students are also doing it.

if she’s at diploma/grade 6 level on instruments then dropping the practice time on those won’t lose her skills and it sounds like she keeps them going through orchestra etc.

group projects are always shit and involve one or two people doing the work while the others free ride.

if she’s happy (for values of happy) I’d let her be right now. Maybe check back with her at Christmas.

This was very much my DD in year 12. My daughter played multiple instruments, was very active in sport and drama, did 3 A Levels plus an EPQ. The extra curriculars took up about 12 hours a week with travel, plus she was very social and at parties etc almost every weekend.

The whole process of wanting to go to Oxbridge was a slow burn. I spoke to her about reducing her extra curriculars in year 12 but it wasn't until the following year that it happened. She continued to play sport right through her A Levels, which I was really happy about but she dropped the music and drama. The parties naturally tailed off as A Levels approached.

Maybe visiting different unis will help to focus your DD and find out where she really wants to be? This is what happened with us. My DD fell in love with the college she's at now when she visited it at the end of year 12. I think that made her really sit up, realise she had a great opportunity in her grasp and had to give it her best shot.

Ultimately everything your daughter has done in terms of study and extra curriculars has shaped the person she is now. Nothing is wasted. But over the next year, if Oxford is truly where she wants to be, she needs to prioritise. It may be a bit early to do that at the moment but at least you've sown the seed.