Being ‘normal’ vs aiming for Oxford

[Skpt]

DD is 6 weeks into year 12 and struggling with the absurd workload she has given herself. 4 fairly hefty A Levels, learning two instruments, one at diploma level, one grade 6 ish which she plays in the city’s youth orchestra, a job she goes to one weekday evening and one weekend afternoon, and currently a group project for a trip she is taking in a few weeks. She also is attempting to continue with a reasonable social life including a relatively new boyfriend.

It’s hard to say what’s causing her the most stress at the moment. The group project is taking up most of her time (and I was a bit cross to find out that the others in her group are not spending anywhere near as much time on it outside of school as she is). The stress this evening is because she feels out of her depth in the orchestra, which could be easily remedied by actually practicing, but she isn’t making the time to do that.

The Oxford question came up because I pointed out that once the trip was over she would have much more headspace, but she was insistent that she while she was coping easily with her school work now, it will inevitably become much much harder and she feels she can’t relax in year 12 because she wants to get top grades and apply for Oxford and she will really have to put the work in this year to do that.

So, we had a big talk about priorities, and how if she wants to aim for Oxford she really needs to know why, beyond the general expectation of her friends and her teachers, and how if she decides it is what she wants then she will probably need to sacrifice some of her current extracurricular activities to focus on her school work and the ‘supra-curricular’ stuff in the subject she wants to study.

BUT that if she decides she doesn’t want Oxford and all the stress of that, then it is perfectly valid to ease off the throttle on her studies to make space for her music and her friends and earning money to save up for the trip she wants to take after her A levels. Basically a more ‘normal’ teenage life and aim for a more ‘normal’ university.

By the end of the conversation she had talked herself into quitting orchestra and her second instrument and also out of applying to Oxford!

Which is fine as a final choice, but I feel just like I wanted to her to really know why she did want to apply to Oxford, I want her to make a fully informed choice not to apply, so she can bat away pressure from friends etc.

Sorry, very long post, I’m using mumsnet to get my thoughts in order 🙄, not entirely sure what my question is now…

Anyone make anything of all of that?

What degree is she looking to do? If medicine (looking at the bio chem maths combo) then she really does need to prioritise her time and efforts. As if medicine/dentistry - it really does just come down to grades and UCAT score, many medical schools won't even read personal statements. Sorry if I've made an assumption with medicine there, of course there are many other degrees you can do with that trio of subjects.

Don't let her drop the music, either the A-level or the instruments. These are the things that will bring her joy and help her through bad patches in her life to come.

A young person who has been told how academically amazing she is from Day One will have had a whole heap of expectations loaded on her, none of which matter more than her happiness.

It sounds as though she is aiming for Oxford simply because it is what is expected of her. That is not a good reason to go.

She needs to look around her at her friends who are not putting themselves through this pressure and ask herself if it is worth it. And she needs some slack in which to enjoy putting a toe in the water of having a boyfriend and all that this entails.

I see lots of highly intelligent young people struggling their way through to meet expectations when this is a precious time of life that will not come again and there are other priorities too.

She needs to drop whichever subject she enjoys the least (and not drop the music because it seems the obvious choice that would be expected of her) and start getting some balance in her life.

Learning how to achieve balance and setting this as a priority is a valuable life lesson. It is just as important as Oxford/A-levels etc.

If I were you I would back off a bit as you are probably creating your own version of pressure for her without realising it. Why not just let her do this year and see what she drops or doesn't keep up with and let them go? Nothing needs to be decided right now, it is months before Oxbridge applications even open.

I teach in a top uni and my biggest concern is that mental health is really poor. The kids are exhausted. Competition is fierce. Perfectionists, imposter syndrome, and everything has to be excellent or it’s not worth anything. I think you need to reframe how you are discussing this with your daughter. It’s not Oxford or having a ‘normal’ life which implies that option is somehow lesser. If she doesn’t go or doesn’t get in, she’ll carry the feeling of choosing the lesser option or not being good enough. The ‘I couldn’t imagine going to Sheffield’ comment from her friend needs challenging. Being told you are ‘amazing’ at reception is great but can also create a huge amount of pressure. It’s a delicate balance to be encouraging and supporting your child to strive alongside helping them not internalise decisions and events as being defining of low self worth. Best wishes to you both.

You say she's stressed, and it does sound a lot, but how is that manifesting? Because it actually sounds like she's coping quite well, she's still doing things she enjoys and isn't willing to give them up, she has a new boyfriend. Stress in itself isn't an inherent issue if you can handle it. In fact it bodes well for Oxbridge that's she's managing all this right now even if you don't think it's sustainable. The group project is temporary.

I'd generally leave her be, it sounds like she has her head screwed on, but I'd be encouraging her to aim for Oxbridge, she sounds like a good candidate to me.

The four A-levels are great and are her academic interests - you can take an instrument back up whenever you like, but you don’t easily get the chance to sit music A-level again.

I teach at Oxbridge and had a sixth form load a lot like your DD. My advice is for her to drop the job and the second instrument with the youth orchestra commitment. There are orchestras she can get involved with at university and she can always return to that instrument if she is at a grade 6 level.

Oxbridge do not look at extracurriculars when making offers. Yes you don’t need four A-levels either, but from what you say music is an academic enthusiasm of hers, and it would be a real shame to drop it right now.

Keep the A-levels and the diploma instrument, plus a reasonable bit of social life; drop the job and some of the extracurriculars like the orchestra. Can you give her some extra pocket money cash to compensate for not doing the job? She has all her life ahead for working (and can work in uni vacations and so on), but she will never get the academic opportunity of her A-levels again.

People continue their education at different times of life ... the idea that she will "never get the academic opportunity of A levels again" is an unnecessary pressure and the sort of thing that generates the mental health problems you speak of.

I wouldn’t talk her out of applying, given her grades and other background, if that what she wants, but it is maybe a bit early to decide. I was at Cambridge, it’s not some place of mythical beings, just brainy kids from a variety of backgrounds. If she were my Dd I’d be telling her to calm down a bit and see how things are looking later in the year. It’s best to view applying as “having a crack at it” with a good Plan B - the extra work done would probably be useful in her main subject whether she gets in or not. Good luck to her 🍀.

I'm going slightly against the grain but I don't think your DD needs to drop lots of things in order to apply for Oxford. At the end of the day, their A level offers are mostly the same as other top tier universities, and occasionally lower (I'm looking at you Imperial!). Any super curricular activities are things she ought to be doing anyway if she has a passion for her subject and will help her get top grades. If there is an A level subject she's not keen on or doesn't need then drop that - offers are made on 3 A levels. The thing that might require work is preparing for the admissions test.
DS did 4 A levels (but one was Further Maths), managed 2 Grade 8's (took the exams in the autumn of Y12, then dropped one instrument and carried on with the other for fun), continued to play football and had a part time job (although in the run up to A levels he did drop his hours right back to 1 shift a week). Having outside interests is really important. And at the end of the day the majority of Oxford students are pretty normal.

I work with young people at Oxbridge who routinely do four A-levels and lots of other things too. I myself did 4. There is no reason why this necessarily has to be a problem for mental health for a bright and capable student. Many thrive on the academic stretch and actually enjoy it — I did.

It’s just a fact, however, that whilst studying an instrument, playing music and being in an orchestra can be done at any stage of life, studying A-level music is something that one is unlikely to be able to fit in at other points later in life — including studying alongside your cohort, arranging to sit the exam at an exam centre and so on. A-level music is not just playing an instrument: it’s an academic discipline in itself involving lots of different aspects of the history of music, musicology, music theory, composition and so on. It may well be precisely these aspects of the A-level that OP’s DD enjoys; and you have to be taught them — you can’t easily just learn them on your own for fun. One thing that PP haven’t taken into account is that if you play an instrument to diploma level and have a high level of music theory knowledge then music A-level is complementary with that; and there is some overlap which makes it easier — BUT the A-level also has a lot of content which is actually of huge interest if you play an instrument, and it’s that content that is both enjoyable AND can’t easily be picked up outside of the A-level course. There’s also a plus in that if the DD wants to do a STEM course or medicine, the Music A-level provides a breadth of essay writing, cultural content and argumentative/analytical skills in the humanities that are also very desirable and enjoyable, and actually really useful to have while doing medicine or a STEM subject.

I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a student who regrets taking an extra A-level; but I do meet many students who wish they hadn’t done quite so many extracurricular activities!

It sounds to me like OP’s DD enjoys her A-levels, and that dramatically reducing her workload is not required, but dropping a few things is required, so that she can concentrate on the ones that will stand her in good stead for the future, academically and personally. To me, that says focus on the A-levels and the diploma instrument, but park the orchestra and the second instrument and the job — these are all things that are nice to have, but which you can also pick up again any time; whereas the A-levels and the main instrument all go well together and will be important for her future in many ways.

Edited to add: there’s a lot of talk around mental health at university these days, but in my (long) experience much of it is a kind of discourse that circulates, but that the majority of students don’t actually experience significant mental health problems despite a lot of talk that they do. This is not to say that nobody does; but the proportion of students with significant mental health problems has in my experience largely remained the same as it ever was (eg. ten or twenty or thirty years ago).

My experience as a pastoral tutor also is that for the most part, serious mental health problems are often caused by things in the student’s life outside of academic pressures. (Oxford and Cambridge have very extensive pastoral support for mental health, too — more so than other universities.) The vast majority of students, however, might feel under pressure but not to an intolerable level; they enjoy their subjects and their extracurricular interests, and have fun as well, and also do paid work in the holidays, and their overall experience is very positive, not some kind of terrible experience of mental health collapse, no matter how much this idea goes around.

I am not suggesting she give up A level music... far from it! I absolutely understand the extent and value of this as an academic subject.

Yes — but also I strongly think that learning to prioritise certain things because one time in your life is best or optimal to do them, is a life skill, and one that it’s good for sixth form students to learn — and this isn’t really a mental health pressure but part of everybody’s life.

Oh I just meant that was my 17yo perspective! I did English and loved the sound of the course and how it was delivered, but I was certainly swayed by the reputation plus the architecture and history too 😂

Biology, chemistry maths and music, eh?

Aside from wanting to go to Oxford, what exactly is it she's intending to study for her degree? Oxford (or indeed any university) is not the end result, it is merely a stepping stone to help you get where you want to be, and to provide the right training and qualification.

What career does she have in mind, and which universities offer the most suitable and highly-regarded degree courses for that path? Oxford might not even be the best place for what she wants to do.

DD had a vocational career plan so her priorities were different, but as we all know, you can't burn a candle at both ends. Something has to give somewhere, and you have to make sacrifices. Otherwise you suffer from burnout.

In your dd's case I'd suggest what needs to go is the orchestra and the instrument she plays in that. They are probably gearing up for Christmas concerts at the moment, and that is additional pressure she really doesn't need. Musical instruments can be put down and picked up again years later without much difficulty, especially the level she's at already.

Quoting this post because I think this is all really sound advice.

I agree with this.

I went to Oxford and most of us really thrived on a bit of academic pressure - I think Oxford would be a bit miserable as an experience if you didn't TBH.

In sixth form, I did 4 A levels plus a GCSE on the side for interest (music as it happens!), plus two instruments, orchestra, part time job, not dissimilar to the OP's DD. I did feel a bit of pressure because I was pretty busy but I didn't feel overwhelmed.

I think a lot of people like the OP's DD need to figure out their limits for themselves.

I wasn't really capable of "easing off" the study - I was and always have been quite all or nothing. I always give my work 100% too. I think it's characteristic of a lot of Oxbridge students. (Note - not saying students at other places don't work hard or can't also have the same qualities)

Hi OP, just putting my 2 pence in as a psychotherapist. Your reply here stood out to me. How she was shaken by a friend commenting that she couldn’t imagine her going to Sheffield University and how she is feeling the weight of expectation.

You were absolutely right to explore with her WHY she wants to go to Oxford. It’s a top uni yes. But I’d be wondering what it would mean to her if she DIDNT get into Oxford. I’m a failure? Not good enough? She is clearly very intelligent and a high achiever and that is fantastic. However I come across this a lot in my work. It can be marred by low self esteem and perfectionism. Driving people to ridiculous and unsustainable lengths to keep achieving. And crashing and suffering when they don’t achieve or under the strain of striving.

As a teen she is at one of the most demanding times of her life so far. So much change, growth and expectation. Getting into Oxford is the ‘easy’ part. The work load and expectations are extremely tough to manage. Is she prepared for that? She needs to consider what it would involve and accept that she will need to take care of her mental health wherever she goes. Make time for friends, downtime, R&R, hobbies just for pleasure, not just another achievement.

I would encourage her to reflect on what she wants out of her university experience. She needs to consider if the only reason she wants to go to Oxford is because ‘it’s the best’ and a sign of failure if she doesn’t get in, or cannot cope with it if she does.

Eitherway, she needs to put herself and her stress management first. She needs to know it’s okay to not always be the best or top of the class and that going somewhere else doesn’t mean anything bad. If she wants to go to Oxford, go for it, fantastic! But take care of yourself along the way.

What does she want @Skpt the one thing I tell my year 12 daughter is that she should follow and decide what she wants I can talk it through with her but it needs to be hers.

She has a similar GCSE profile to yours less musical (working at Grade 5 flute and Grade 6 singing) and into dance with a small job and has unequivocally decided (like myself) Oxford isn’t for her

My eldest chose music then got inexplicably unhappy through the summer before sixth form. Went to a “welcome back” BBQ and seemed so much happier when they returned. “Mum, I swapped music for Further Maths - I want to play for pleasure”. For them, it was the best decision. Ended up running Live Music Society at uni with housemates.

When my DC were in 6th form it was made very clear to parents and students that that acceptance into Oxbridge was very dependant on interview and also something of a lottery, Their advice was only to apply if the student could accept that they may not be offered a place. They were strongly encouraged not to view this as failure and to be positive about their other university choices.
When DD went for an Oxbridge interview I got the impression that apart from her academic ability they were also assessing whether she would be suited to the style of teaching and a high pressure environment.. I would advise prospective students and parents to reflect on this. .

Could say most of this about DD. She was and still is a bit of a perfectionist so sets herself high standards, sometimes too high.

But she decided quite early on that she didn’t want to go for Oxbridge and funnily enough, chose to do Maths at Sheffield. She loves it tho she chose to live in private halls from the start so has had a slightly different experience of that as uni. Her friend from school is at Hallam and lives next door to her.

Absolutely nothing wrong with Sheffield. I don’t know why people say such stupid things that put pressure on kids like that. It’s very hard to get an Oxbridge offer, and just adds to the stress of 6th form. A friend of hers from school took a year out and applied then. However, he did get 4xA*s which I’m going to guess helps!

Ok, have talked a bit more to DD and shared some of the perspectives from this thread - which has been really helpful so thank you all for your thoughtful posts.

It seems very likely that she will stop orchestra and her second instrument. We talked a bit about music A level and her job. She accepts that music isn’t a necessary A level, but pointed out that 35% of her grade is performance, and with her work on her diploma she could actually take that section now with no further effort. She enjoys composition and recognised that there is a danger that she could spend a disproportionate amount of time on that which could impact her other A levels. She is sticking with it for now, but feels ok with the idea of dropping it for year 13 if necessary.

She really dug her heels in about the job. It’s music related so it is kinda complimentary to the A level and her diploma work.

She really liked Sheffield 🤷‍♀️

She confirmed nothing I could say would stop her aiming for the best grades she can get in her A levels. So the people who were shocked that I would suggest she chill out a bit can rest easy 😂

There's nothing wrong with Sheffield. Equally, Oxford is fairly normal apart from the short terms and tutorial system, and will probably offer her a lower entrance tariff than many Russell Group universities. What does she want to study?

Like others here I went to Oxford, and my daughter's applying this year. We both took 3 A Levels having started with 4, and I think 4 is a lot and she could drop the least useful/enjoyable. I don't think she should drop supra-curriculars but she should absolutely ease back on the extra-curricular stuff. Also, she does not need to be working full throttle right now. Slow and steady will work better.

At this time in Y12 DD was doing masses of extra-curricular stuff and also 4 A Levels. She dropped an A Level but nothing else towards the end of Y12 and eased off on the extra-curriculars for Y13. Worked out fine and she got three A stars at A Level which will let her apply wherever she wants this year (she's on a gap year).

BUT - if your daughter struggles with pressure and frequently talks herself into working too hard and doing too much, I think she may find Oxford a bit of a pressure cooker. Pacing herself and learning to ease off at times for her own good is definitely a skill worth learning this year, whether or not she eventually decides that Oxford is a good idea.

OP this sounds very sensible. She has experience of the orchestra now, so it can always go on her CV/UCAS form anyway even if she gives it up. Just removing that may well give her enough of the lightening of the load that she needs. And she can always reduce socialising a bit so she’s still having a social life, but not doing everything.

I very much agree with keeping the music A-level for now. She then also has a bit of leeway to drop the job later if she needs to.