Being ‘normal’ vs aiming for Oxford

[Skpt]

DD is 6 weeks into year 12 and struggling with the absurd workload she has given herself. 4 fairly hefty A Levels, learning two instruments, one at diploma level, one grade 6 ish which she plays in the city’s youth orchestra, a job she goes to one weekday evening and one weekend afternoon, and currently a group project for a trip she is taking in a few weeks. She also is attempting to continue with a reasonable social life including a relatively new boyfriend.

It’s hard to say what’s causing her the most stress at the moment. The group project is taking up most of her time (and I was a bit cross to find out that the others in her group are not spending anywhere near as much time on it outside of school as she is). The stress this evening is because she feels out of her depth in the orchestra, which could be easily remedied by actually practicing, but she isn’t making the time to do that.

The Oxford question came up because I pointed out that once the trip was over she would have much more headspace, but she was insistent that she while she was coping easily with her school work now, it will inevitably become much much harder and she feels she can’t relax in year 12 because she wants to get top grades and apply for Oxford and she will really have to put the work in this year to do that.

So, we had a big talk about priorities, and how if she wants to aim for Oxford she really needs to know why, beyond the general expectation of her friends and her teachers, and how if she decides it is what she wants then she will probably need to sacrifice some of her current extracurricular activities to focus on her school work and the ‘supra-curricular’ stuff in the subject she wants to study.

BUT that if she decides she doesn’t want Oxford and all the stress of that, then it is perfectly valid to ease off the throttle on her studies to make space for her music and her friends and earning money to save up for the trip she wants to take after her A levels. Basically a more ‘normal’ teenage life and aim for a more ‘normal’ university.

By the end of the conversation she had talked herself into quitting orchestra and her second instrument and also out of applying to Oxford!

Which is fine as a final choice, but I feel just like I wanted to her to really know why she did want to apply to Oxford, I want her to make a fully informed choice not to apply, so she can bat away pressure from friends etc.

Sorry, very long post, I’m using mumsnet to get my thoughts in order 🙄, not entirely sure what my question is now…

Anyone make anything of all of that?

She's gonna need the same grades whether she goes to Oxford or another top uni.

Honestly, getting top A-levels and getting into a good uni set me up for life. It's probably the most important thing I ever did for my career and life trajectory... If she needs to do less she should did the orchestra, extra-curricular and part-time job, but she shouldn't try less hard at A-levels. And why not apply for Oxford? All decent unis require the top grades so she won't be working harder to get in, and it'd be an amazing accomplishment if she gets in

I would not suggest she should be less academically ambitious! If anything (and money isn’t incredibly tight) I’d suggest she drops the part time job. She’s going to have to work for the rest of her life for money (most likely) but now is time to learn.

It sounds like she is taking on a lot. DS recently ruled out applying to Oxford for various reasons, but the grades he needs for his top choice Unis are the same, so it doesn’t ease the pressure on school work.

The music A level, part time job, two instruments are a lot of ‘extra’. A social life is a good thing, and a part time job to save up for a specific purpose is a good life lesson. So to free up time for those, I’d be encouraging your DD to think about those extras and what should give. If the music A level is just because she enjoys it, and might get dropped at some point, it seems the obvious choice.

We’re also off to Sheffield open day tomorrow!

I went to Oxford. 4 heavy A levels plus extra curriculars plus job is very very standard (I also had a boyfriend) if you aren’t keeping up now, you won’t at Oxford where it’s super intense 8 week terms. The grades are what matters though, not the extra curricular if that’s what it takes.

Ditch the instruments and apply to Oxford Brookes all the fun without the pressure

I'd advise dropping one A level and the job, unless your family need the money.

DC were aiming for Oxbridge and neither of them had regular PT jobs until they had already started at uni. I said working towards getting A*s at A level was enough of a job. Some of their friends managed fine and did it all but bot my DC needed a bit of down time.

I'd also maybe chat with her about not feeling she has to carry slackers or be perfectionist about every single thing she does. It's okay to do a small amount and expect others to do the same. If she sets too high a bar (for fund raising or physical training for a team event etc) then others might just let her get on with it or choose to operate at a lower level. it's a skill to learn when to step back and just be good enough, not great at things that matter less.

She should put her efforts on the things that are important for her future ie her core A Level subjects, plus the social activities that she enjoys and make her happy - presumably that would be her social life and playing in the orchestra.

Personally I would be encouraging her to set her sights high, not sowing seeds of doubt. Oxford is an amazing university. It might not be for everyone, but you should certainly start in a more optimistic position and let her visit/talk to other students and make up her own mind. There's nothing in your post to suggest she wouldn't enjoy it or do well there.

I did 4 A Levels, one instrument to Grade 8, had a part-time job but only once every two weeks, and had an active social life. I didn't feel it was too much but your daughter is doing more than this.

It does strike me that she is spending so much time on music, and I wonder if that is the thing to compromise on. Is there a need to do music A Level when also doing so much music outside of school?

The contrast between 'being normal' and 'aiming for Oxford' is not helpful. As previous posters have said, there are other universities that are as competitive for the subjects they excel in, as well as plenty of subjects in which Oxford does not excel.

I wonder whether the real problem is that she is both a perfectionist and in need of external validation. It is easy to get caught up in that hunger for validation if you are bright and get lots of positive feedback from teachers. But chasing that high means always looking for the next and more challenging hoop to jump through.
Oxford (and Cambridge) have this mythic status of being the most competitive universities to get into, so they easily become the drug of choice for adolescents looking for that next hit of external validation. (I know - I did it myself; and when I got to Oxford I just kept on and on aiming higher to get that same hit until my mental health eventually exploded).
I don't know how you can help her to feel more self-accepting and chilled, but that would seem to be what is called for. Which, if any, of her many activities bring her joy? Does she even give herself the space to know the answer to that question? Is there any way that you could help her to notice when she takes real pleasure in doing things, as opposed to just chasing success??

You have answered your question yourself - you said in order to get in to Oxford she has to ditch practically everything in her life except school to do so. That’s not ‘normal’.

This is kind of where I’m coming from, and what I mean when I say she needs to know ‘why’ she wants to go to Oxford.

DD was an Oxbridge reject but ironically needed higher grades for her second choice Uni. As PP as pointed out top Unis are on par or even higher -. some DC still get rejected from top Uni's despite amazing grades. Drop the 4th A-level it is of no benefit and will ease a lot of pressure.

DD graduated this year and has managed to get the most amazing internship (which has turned into a permanent contract) all because of the grades she got and the Uni she went to.

I have tried to tell her she doesn’t need the job, she moans enough about having to go, but she wants the spending money, and to save up, not just accept us paying for things, which is hard to argue against.

If you don't need the money & can afford to support her then this is surely really easy to argue? I think the priority is dropping the job. She is doing far, far too much & she can't really earn that much in a very part time job anyway.

I can understand her keeping the 4th A level. I did a creative 4th A level & never regretted it. I went to a top Russell Group. If she really enjoys it its important and Oxbridge really likes people with wide interests and skills. She doesnt need the music a level & 2 instruments though. I would definitely drop 2nd instrument & orchestra. There will be loads of opportunities for ensemble playing/orchestra at uni, especially oxford later. She definitely doesnt need it now.

If she wants to do four A levels and get good grades in them, it will be a lot of work regardless of what university she wants to go to. She does have too much on. I would ditch the job as she will struggle to cope and do well if she continues with everything.

My daughter originally wanted to go to Oxbridge.

she changed her mind in Y12 - I think the stress of worry about all the extra supercurricular stuff she (perceived she) need to do was a big factor.

I think she also felt she was letting people down - she got straight 9’s at gcse and she felt people expected her to do it. A couple of friends got in but she doesn’t regret her decision.

i am relieved in one way or another- she puts a huge amount of pressure on herself and I suspect she could have struggled while there with that mindset.

It's entirely normal if that's her aim and an aim you shoukd ve encouraging and normalising if you want her to fulfil her potential. Are you sure this isn't about your comfort zone?

Does she have a passion for a particular subject or does she want to go to Oxford and the subject choice is secondary?

Drop the 4th Alevel asap, it’s of no benefit especially as she already has other musical interests. It will make a massive difference - less work + more frees. IME jobs are very good for developing soft skills so could carry on that for now. Consider dropping on of the instrument lessons.

This is tricky. I have a dd also in year 12, doing 4 A-levels, lots of music (2 grade 8s and a grade 7 planned for this year) and other co-curriculars too. No job or boyfriend though.

I work on the basis that if she goes to Cambridge (her first choice) then the workload is going to be insane and she’s still going to want to play in orchestras and chamber groups etc and dance and do all the other things she currently does so I don’t encourage her to “slack off” in any area, I just keep a sharp eye on her demeanour and general wellbeing.

If your dd is struggling then a conversation around what might go is possibly helpful. My dd knows that if it all starts getting too much then her outside netball club will be the first to go. She’s already decided that she’s unlikely to do the summer league this year as we’ll need the Saturdays for open days.

Please make sure she doesn’t go to Oxbridge just because it’s expected. Make sure she checks the courses and she wants the college life and 8 week terms. I was there, several people left, or hated it as they hadn’t really anticipated what it meant other than it was what was expected of them.

I’m not quite getting the idea that you need a special reason to want to go to Oxford - I didn’t pick up on what subject your DD would be studying though, which might affect her decision.

DP and I went, and it was brilliant! I wanted to go as it’s the “best” uni 😂 I was always highly academic so of course I wanted to go to Oxbridge! Nothing deeper than that. I worked at school but not wildly hard - no MH issues. Your DD has way more extracurriculars going on than I did, which does sound pretty full on. I’d ditch the job if I were her!

I don’t get why you’d dissuade someone from applying to Oxford, to be honest. IME I had an amazing time, and my degrees have been looked on v favourably by employers.

ETA: I did the IB, and we looked on people doing A levels as slackers since their timetables were so much quieter 😂

Agree with PPs. You get less than two years to do A-Levels and it's them (not orchestra, enriching trips, part time jobs or extracurriculars) that govern which university you get into.

I had to work through my A-Levels and uni because we were poor. (If you don't need the money the only other reason I think why 16-18yos should have Saturday jobs is to learn the discipline of working - but it's clear she doesn't need that.)

You need to stop seeing Oxford through rose-tinted Brideshead spectacles. It's a uni with demanding entry requirements - just like Bath, Warwick, UCL and yes, Sheffield. She needs to think more about the course she wants to do rather than the University.

DS is in the same year. He knows what courses at what Unis he wants to get into. He knows that it will be extremely hard (not as good GCSE results as your DD) but he has read all the requirements, watched a lot of youtube videos and put together a plan that focuses on what the admissions departments are asking for. All of his extra/super curriculars support his A-Levels and future course.

Basically agree what is the priority for what she wants and then drop the rest which IMO would be one instrument, the job and the project trip.

I also had a great time at Oxford, and certainly didn’t work particularly hard to get in, but I wouldn’t have contemplated applying there if I hadn’t thought the specific curriculum for my subject and the system of teaching suited me — there’s no such thing as objectively ‘the best’ for an individual.

Agree with the A-Level comment - 3 A levels at DS school is 15 hours of teaching plus another 15 hours roughly of self-study. Hardly onerous. I did 3 A Levels, went out drinking and clubbing a lot, did lots of extra curriculars, a boyfriend or several and a part time job. I did get rejected by Oxford though (awful interview which I cringe about).

She wouldn’t be allowed to have a part time job in term time at Oxford as they want all your time on studying and uni activities - she is giving herself a higher workload in 6th form than they would allow her to have for her own health/avoiding burnout/prioritising study.

She sounds like a teenager should be! Trying out life - boyfriend, job, study, music etc

what a shame we have to limit them and suggest they drop things that could be helping them gain valuable life experiences.

one option is just leave her be. She could apply and if grades are better / worse than hoped reapply a year later too.

part time work can be incredibly useful for social confidence and for working out what you do and don’t want in life.

my perspective is my dd was very similar - doing it all and had the grades for Oxford. She didn’t go and has ended up somewhere perfect for her doing a course we hadn’t expected in y12. They sometimes need time to figure things out.