Being ‘normal’ vs aiming for Oxford

[Skpt]

DD is 6 weeks into year 12 and struggling with the absurd workload she has given herself. 4 fairly hefty A Levels, learning two instruments, one at diploma level, one grade 6 ish which she plays in the city’s youth orchestra, a job she goes to one weekday evening and one weekend afternoon, and currently a group project for a trip she is taking in a few weeks. She also is attempting to continue with a reasonable social life including a relatively new boyfriend.

It’s hard to say what’s causing her the most stress at the moment. The group project is taking up most of her time (and I was a bit cross to find out that the others in her group are not spending anywhere near as much time on it outside of school as she is). The stress this evening is because she feels out of her depth in the orchestra, which could be easily remedied by actually practicing, but she isn’t making the time to do that.

The Oxford question came up because I pointed out that once the trip was over she would have much more headspace, but she was insistent that she while she was coping easily with her school work now, it will inevitably become much much harder and she feels she can’t relax in year 12 because she wants to get top grades and apply for Oxford and she will really have to put the work in this year to do that.

So, we had a big talk about priorities, and how if she wants to aim for Oxford she really needs to know why, beyond the general expectation of her friends and her teachers, and how if she decides it is what she wants then she will probably need to sacrifice some of her current extracurricular activities to focus on her school work and the ‘supra-curricular’ stuff in the subject she wants to study.

BUT that if she decides she doesn’t want Oxford and all the stress of that, then it is perfectly valid to ease off the throttle on her studies to make space for her music and her friends and earning money to save up for the trip she wants to take after her A levels. Basically a more ‘normal’ teenage life and aim for a more ‘normal’ university.

By the end of the conversation she had talked herself into quitting orchestra and her second instrument and also out of applying to Oxford!

Which is fine as a final choice, but I feel just like I wanted to her to really know why she did want to apply to Oxford, I want her to make a fully informed choice not to apply, so she can bat away pressure from friends etc.

Sorry, very long post, I’m using mumsnet to get my thoughts in order 🙄, not entirely sure what my question is now…

Anyone make anything of all of that?

Sorry @BonjourCrisette , but I am amused by another post that starts by claiming that Oxford is normal, but ends with a disclaimer that suggests that it is quite different from other universities. You can’t have it both ways!

I think there are quite a few other universities where there is quite a bit more pressure than, say, Sheffield! It's not just Oxford.

She might be better off dropping one of her a levels, as getting top grades in 3 a levels will give her a much better chance of getting in to oxford or anywhere else she might want to apply than 4 a levels with lower grades

Let music be her relaxation. She may be not enjoying it because the focus is on studying it as an A level hence not practising so much outside this. Given her current level already per your OP music A level won’t add much. You need three good solid A levels in relevant subjects for Oxford, not 4. So drop the music A level and tell her to push back on the other people involved in her “group project” and tell them to pull their weight: this is a useful skill to learn and part of team work, not just picking up the slack for slackers. I’d also start praising her hard work and effort rather than everyone telling her she is “amazing” and that puts a lot of pressure on a child and makes them think they are valued only for their results and achievements. However, I don’t think you’re wise to tell her not to work hard. The issue is learning how to manage her workload realistically and appropriately.

Really? How many? Which ones? Because I think there are far more universities on a par with Sheffield. Just because Oxford is not the only pressure cooker does not make that environment ‘normal’.

I think she is taking a sensible approach though the 4th A level won't increase chances of an offer so focus on top 3 or potentially drop 4th later.

My DD who is at Oxford had a job and she found that very beneficial but she did cut down hours in y13. She did discuss her job at Oxford interview, they said that part did not count but everything makes an impression even if not scored. She did 3 A levels and that worked well for her - her subject has a lot of applicants so its important to score very highly on admissions test and a lot doing 4 got rejected pre interview due to admissions test not high enough. In her subject (E&M) Oxford's A level offer (A star AA) is same as all the top 10 and I think Warwick was higher. I don't think Oxford is any more pressure than places like LSE, Imperial, Warwick and terms are very short, she loves it and has plenty of time for rowing every day and socialising and the job she had has been useful to go back to in the holidays and so we are not nagged for money

My experience and the experience of my friends at Oxbridge (none of whom were from privileged families - I guess we are drawn to those like us!) was that we’d maintained jobs, extra curriculars and a social life alongside high attainment at A Level - but with hindsight I’d have done 3 not 4 A levels as not a single university cared about 4, but it did mean they could specify the subjects they cared about if they so chose in their offers. This means if your DD applies for a science course they may say the grades have to be from her sciences. If she’s heavily involved in music anyway I would drop A level music - there are so many society and social opportunities around that at university anyway. And don’t limit her horizons - apply to Oxbridge if she wants, but also look at the top 20 and consider future career opportunities.

FWIW, Sheffield ranks 8th for DD’s subject in the Sunday Times rankings, six places above Imperial College London.

Pretty typical snobby response from an elitist who knows jack. Standard MN fodder.

My DD is in year 12 and very similar and doing 5 A levels and 3 instruments (3 x diploma level), and a sport and tutoring others and still seeing friends. But she is surrounded by kids in a grammar - and some are doing even more and they somehow balance each other out with the high energy. My DD is tired now it’s half term but otherwise thriving. They are all doing supracurriculars as well, like olympiads, debate competitions, attending lectures. It’s exhausting to watch but they are a very happy group. Could it be that she stands out a bit amongst her peers? Personally, I would want my DD to drop wider interests just for Oxbridge. I don’t feel it is worth the sacrifice of being broadly interested and fulfilled.

I wouldn't have her drop the job, it'll help her get another job at uni if she's already worked and employers often like to see that applicants have held down a part time job. It also probably is giving her soft skills that her academics won't.

I wouldn't give up either of the instruments or orchestra - extra curriculars are really important IMO but I would say does she really need to do music A-level on top - that is the first thing I'd let go. If she's doing 4 A-levels then Oxford will ask for 4 high grades from what I've read, if she does 3 then they'll ask for 3 High grades. She might think the music is a nice break from the other subjects - but an actual break by not doing 4 A-levels might be even better! It depends what she wants to do at uni though.

I would wait until the project is over though and see how things are then, it might be the project that is causing her to be stressed and things might calm down after that.

Judging by DD’s friends aiming for Oxbridge, nobody is ditching things - they are just eg extremely passionate about eg Politics and already a party member and won a national debating competition or want to do Music and have been in the national youth orchestra and conducting the school choir for years and playing the organ in the local churches for years or want to do maths and have been through to Olympiads for years. I don’t think it’s worth it to contrive and ditch hobbies to feign some passion just for Oxbridge. Life is too short, she is going to do well whichever uni she goes to and how miserable if she has to give up her musical interests just for that. When later on in life her creative mind will get her places.

She can get into Oxford without all that. She only needs 3 a levels. She should stop lessons in the instruments and use them only as a stress reliever. The job is helpful to have had, but closer to the exams I’d actually ditch that too.

And whether she should be focussed on Oxford will depend on what she y to do for a degree. For sciences I’ve always rated Cambridge and some of the London ones higher. For more niche subjects you find the best unis in random places. Yes, Oxford is lovely, but she needs to match her uni to her subject and future plans rather than focus on prestige.

She sounds like my daughter. And that comes with a warning.

DD was also the golden pupil from the moment she stepped into reception. This is not a bragging post, but she really was good at everything all the way through school. Where your DD has music extra curricular, mine had sport, one of them competing at national level.

What we didn't realise until she was an adult starting work, was that this hadn't been a good thing. Her perfectionism and concurrent anxiety is a real issue, and because she'd never came across something she wasn't good at, she can't cope with what she perceives as failure.

She interviewed for Cambridge, didn't get in, and went to Sheffield (which actually had a better reputation for her subject then Cambridge).

I agree with others that the orchestra and one instrument should be what your DD drops. If she genuinely wants Oxford, she needs to have space to really drill down on those A levels.
But at the same time, in hindsight I'm hugely glad that mine didn't go to Cambridge. Her perfectionism would probably have led to a breakdown at some point, under that pressure.

This

If she enjoys Music, why not drop one of the other A-levels instead? What does she want to do at uni?

I was your DD when I was at school. I managed everything except the job. However I also knew that I could get away with putting non entrance exam subjects on the back burner until Christmas of yr 13 and then pick them up again as I'd be A level standard already in the ones I sat the exam in. (And it was the halcyon days of the EE offer....). I've also seen my children go through A levels with high level music commitments and the time it takes. My advice (assuming its not medicine that she wants at the end of the day) is to drop the job and you work out roughly what you will be giving her at uni and what, from that, she will have to spend once she has paid for food etc and then give her that amount now as an allowance. Tell her that you want her to practice living on that now. Then she should ask school if for now she could go to music lessons but not do the work or take the A level and also ask if she could do some of her practice in school. (I'm assuming the first instrument is piano or guitar as she doesn't play that in orchestra.) She can then see if things ramp up or not and drop back in to the A level later if she finds it manageable given how much of it is performance and composition - the latter can be caught up in the summer holiday. If orchestra is part of her social life then she should consider keeping it on for now but drop the lessons so the only practice she needs to do is on the orchestral music. DD1 did this in 6th form (it was her 3rd study) and it was fine to keep her ticking over on that instrument - she didn't want to do a diploma on it and it freed up a lot of time for in school piano practice.

ETA unless the job is playing background piano in a restaurant when she could maybe make that into an improvising on things I might compose session...

Firstly, she doesn’t need to do four A levels (even for Oxford).

Secondly, it would be absolutely crazy for anyone to sacrifice their A levels in order to earn money at a part-time job in year 12.

Depends on the subject - I read History and if you have a retentive memory you can get by on relatively little work tbh as you recall what you read when you write your essay so don't need to go back over your notes (and revision is quick and easy) and lectures are optional and not well attended.....

She doesn't need to do 4 A levels but many Oxbridge candidates actively want to. What makes them good candidates is that they genuinely love learning.

I did 4 because I couldn't choose!

I'm worried that some people on the thread may get the wrong impression about Oxbridge:

DS had 3 A levels and his offer was 3 As. He got 2 A stars and an A. He had no extra-curriculars to speak of - doesn't play any instruments, isn't a member of any high profile clubs etc, hasn't won any awards. He did enter an essay comp at the end of Y11 but wasn't placed. I don't think he mentioned it in his PS but some of the reading he'd done for it did inform the PS. He did score the highest mark awarded for his subject entrance test and was one of 3 people out of the 900ish entrants to get that particular mark. He does play a sport but not at county/Olympic level - just for his local club. He captained the fourth team this year and got the most lovely reference from someone in charge of the overall club - it gave me one of my best proud mum moments ever but played no part whatsoever in his Oxbridge application except maybe one line in his PS. It wasn't mentioned at his interview, in which there was no small talk whatsoever according to him.

I feel this thread has filled up with tales of dc doing amazing things all round with sport, music and other extra-curriculars, and of course such people will often end up at Oxbridge but it isn't vital to have done those things to get in. DS absolutely excels at his chosen subject, which is what got him in as far as I can tell.

A couple of general observations prompted by this thread.

Firstly I don't think it helps young people to frame hard work and multiple interests as a route to poor mental health. It may be stressful in some cases if you have a load of commitments you don't want or if there are deadline clashes but these bumps in the road - not 'mental health issues'. I did a lot during my A-levels and during my Masters (full time placement plus evening job plus teaching & marking plus my own academic work and dissertation) and I've never been so happy. Being busy with lots of interests that all feed in and contribute to your studies is absolutely wonderful as long as you manage your energy, time and priorities.

Secondly (and this may contradict the first) high achieving academic people are always going to be vulnerable to over-thinking, self-doubt, over-work, over-planning and competitiveness. It goes with the territory. If you have a brain that is constantly taking in information and looking for patterns and problems, that brain will turn on itself from time to time. There are very few chilled out and well balanced Nobel prize winners. You just have to learn to live with that. The University she goes to will make no difference.

She’s just having a bit of a Type A girl freak out, she’ll probably keep on doing everything and be absolutely fine. A levels aren’t hard if you’re Oxbridge standard and she sounds like she’s pretty happy with her choices, just having a bit of a whinge

This is probably the most accurate take 😂