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Labour isn't working - Thread 13

1000 replies

TheNuthatch · 14/10/2025 22:45

A chat thread for those who don't like this Labour government.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5423193-labour-isnt-working-thread-12?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

OP posts:
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50
twistyizzy · 15/10/2025 19:16

AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:13

The China Spy question - collapsed court case. One thing is for sure - Starmer is as bent as a boomerang, and cannot be trusted. As KB said ‘Badenoch questioned what the point was of having a lawyer as a leader who “can’t even get the law right on a matter of national security.” ‘ 😂🙈

Is this serious enough to be his final undoing? Let’s see what cones out in the wash in the next few days.

‘The criminal case against Christopher Cash and Christopher Berry, who were accused of spying for Beijing, fell apart last month after the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said the government provided insufficient evidence proving China was a threat to national security. Both men denied the charges, while Labour and the Tories had a predictable back-and-forth about who held responsibility.’

https://www.politico.eu/article/pmqs-keir-starmer-china-spy-case/

It is incredibly confusing and I admit to not really having the bandwidth at present however I know in my gut that when Starmer protests something then the opposite is usually true

Upstartled · 15/10/2025 19:16

Who is going to decimate the financial health of their country first, France or Britain?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6c93377f985b80c6

"Wrong on almost everything, hated by voters, incapable of truth-telling, driven by a messianic belief in environmentalism and global technocracy, unable to confront reality, gripped by suicidal empathy and addicted to virtue-signalling, Starmer and Macron have ended up as unlikely brothers in arms, despite their seemingly incompatible styles."

I do like Allister Heath, but it gives me the heebies to have my fears laid out so plainly.

Starmer and Macron are the twin faces of Western decline

The histories of Britain and France have been intertwined for centuries. With two hapless leaders, they are now facing joint calamity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6c93377f985b80c6

TheNuthatch · 15/10/2025 19:17

AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:13

The China Spy question - collapsed court case. One thing is for sure - Starmer is as bent as a boomerang, and cannot be trusted. As KB said ‘Badenoch questioned what the point was of having a lawyer as a leader who “can’t even get the law right on a matter of national security.” ‘ 😂🙈

Is this serious enough to be his final undoing? Let’s see what cones out in the wash in the next few days.

‘The criminal case against Christopher Cash and Christopher Berry, who were accused of spying for Beijing, fell apart last month after the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said the government provided insufficient evidence proving China was a threat to national security. Both men denied the charges, while Labour and the Tories had a predictable back-and-forth about who held responsibility.’

https://www.politico.eu/article/pmqs-keir-starmer-china-spy-case/

Honestly, I think this could go either way. It definitely stinks, but I'm not sure anything will be proven. We will have to wait and see.

I did enjoy James Cleverly's point of order at the end of PMQs though, proving that Starmer had mis quoted his speech at the despatch box.

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AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:17

twistyizzy · 15/10/2025 19:16

It is incredibly confusing and I admit to not really having the bandwidth at present however I know in my gut that when Starmer protests something then the opposite is usually true

Agreed. As has been proven!

EasternStandard · 15/10/2025 19:26

Upstartled · 15/10/2025 19:16

Who is going to decimate the financial health of their country first, France or Britain?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6c93377f985b80c6

"Wrong on almost everything, hated by voters, incapable of truth-telling, driven by a messianic belief in environmentalism and global technocracy, unable to confront reality, gripped by suicidal empathy and addicted to virtue-signalling, Starmer and Macron have ended up as unlikely brothers in arms, despite their seemingly incompatible styles."

I do like Allister Heath, but it gives me the heebies to have my fears laid out so plainly.

Edited

Yep that covers it.

I haven’t followed the China case at all but heard about 5 seconds of Starmer blustering at PMQs and still no couldn’t listen.

AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:30

TheNuthatch · 15/10/2025 19:17

Honestly, I think this could go either way. It definitely stinks, but I'm not sure anything will be proven. We will have to wait and see.

I did enjoy James Cleverly's point of order at the end of PMQs though, proving that Starmer had mis quoted his speech at the despatch box.

Yes. Not only as KB said, can Starmer not get the law right. He can’t actually get his quotes right. I’ll always remember him calling Sunak Prime Minister, 5 times, when he himself is Prime Mibuster. Such sloppyness really does provide further evidence that’s he must have been a fcking useless lawyer. And he’s an even more useless PM.

https://fullfact.org/live/2025/oct/starmer-cleverly-china-comments/

What did James Cleverly say about China when he was foreign secretary? – Full Fact

In the House of Commons today, following discussion of the collapsed China spy case, the Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer and shadow housing secretary James Cleverly clashed over comments Mr …

https://fullfact.org/live/2025/oct/starmer-cleverly-china-comments/

TheNuthatch · 15/10/2025 19:32

Upstartled · 15/10/2025 19:16

Who is going to decimate the financial health of their country first, France or Britain?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6c93377f985b80c6

"Wrong on almost everything, hated by voters, incapable of truth-telling, driven by a messianic belief in environmentalism and global technocracy, unable to confront reality, gripped by suicidal empathy and addicted to virtue-signalling, Starmer and Macron have ended up as unlikely brothers in arms, despite their seemingly incompatible styles."

I do like Allister Heath, but it gives me the heebies to have my fears laid out so plainly.

Edited

He's spot on there, frighteningly so.

OP posts:
AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:32

Upstartled · 15/10/2025 19:16

Who is going to decimate the financial health of their country first, France or Britain?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6c93377f985b80c6

"Wrong on almost everything, hated by voters, incapable of truth-telling, driven by a messianic belief in environmentalism and global technocracy, unable to confront reality, gripped by suicidal empathy and addicted to virtue-signalling, Starmer and Macron have ended up as unlikely brothers in arms, despite their seemingly incompatible styles."

I do like Allister Heath, but it gives me the heebies to have my fears laid out so plainly.

Edited

Perhaps Macron and Starmer need to join Trudeau on the yacht with Katy Perry. Not sure Katy would need to / want to hang around for long.

TheNuthatch · 15/10/2025 19:36

AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:30

Yes. Not only as KB said, can Starmer not get the law right. He can’t actually get his quotes right. I’ll always remember him calling Sunak Prime Minister, 5 times, when he himself is Prime Mibuster. Such sloppyness really does provide further evidence that’s he must have been a fcking useless lawyer. And he’s an even more useless PM.

https://fullfact.org/live/2025/oct/starmer-cleverly-china-comments/

So true. He's embarrassing as PM.
Thanks for the link.

OP posts:
Rivalled · 15/10/2025 19:54

@EmeraldRoulette our private pensions also return 8-9 percent pa. But for me, I get tax relief at 40 percent on pension contributions, and will probably not pay higher rate tax as a pensioner.

Given my employer contributes a whopping 3 percent the tax relief is highly useful.

it makes me very annoyed that pensions aren’t owned by individuals solely and you get your current employer to pay to whichever scheme….

it is worth getting advice to make sure you’re not missing a trick.

marshmallowmix · 15/10/2025 20:15

KS and all his cronies should be ousted!

He’s embarrassing and I hope he sinks with the China spy debacle! He was useless today and not believable KB and JC showed him up …he’s a liar!🤥

They make me beyond sick 🤮 stealing from the people that have worked all their lives and grafted.

CaveMum · 15/10/2025 20:44

Late to the pension chat, but I’d really recommend taking a look at Rebel Finance School. They have a series of videos on YouTube - they are long at between 1-2 hours each and there are about 20 of them but they are worth it if you can stick with them. The couple that do them retired in their late 30s/early 40s and have made it their life’s work to help more people retire early. They don’t charge for their courses, it’s their way of paying it forward.

They’vegot a website too: https://rebeldonegans.com/finance/rfs/

Rebel Finance School - Rebel Donegans

Rebel Finance School is a free 10 week course designed to help you take control of your finances. Get out of debt, develop a positive money mindset and start investing for your financial independence!

https://rebeldonegans.com/finance/rfs/

CruCru · 15/10/2025 20:47

There’s another thing in the Times saying that there are rumours that Reeves will cut the cash ISA limit in half.

Have to be honest, I don’t hate this idea. It won’t have an effect on what people have already built up so probably won’t make people feel insecure (which is what I hate about pre budget speculation). However, it won’t raise £30 bn either.

EmeraldRoulette · 15/10/2025 20:55

I can barely get MN to load again so apologies to the posters I should have tagged

Yes, I do have other investments. I'm definitely not getting 8 to 9% out of them. I was using the term "pension pot" to mean traditional pension. Yes, I do have a private pension. But I haven't been putting much into it for about 10 years.

Traditional pensions seem like something that will be really great if you live to 90 or more. I never think about that because that's too horrifying an idea. I'm pretty confident it won't happen.

I have actually looked at it again this evening and once again, I feel much happier with the money NOT tucked into a vehicle that is subject to so much change. And fiddling with the projections over different amounts isn't really inspiring me.

I will be pissed off if the cash ISA limit is reduced!

Labraradabrador · 15/10/2025 22:37

Surely limiting the cash isa amount doesn’t raise much - it either pushes people into stocks and shares isa or other savings mechanisms. I suppose a portion ends up being spent and therefore potentially generates vat, but cumulatively small. Especially considering most people arent using their full allowance.

strawberrybubblegum · 15/10/2025 22:38

EmeraldRoulette · 15/10/2025 17:53

I know we're generally okay with diversions on this thread and I can't say this anywhere else without getting jumped on...so..

I'm not a big fan of pensions. I freely admit I struggle to keep up with what's going on with them. I have a private pension because I consolidated my employer ones when I started to work for myself

I haven't worried too much about topping it up because I feel like I'm handing over money which could be invested differently, and I'm handing it over to a company who reserves the right to change the rules all the time - and is also forced to change the rules by government.

So I don't see it as a priority.

When I was unwell for a while and not working, one person actually asked me if I was still paying NI contributions.

I was baffled. Not least because I don't think a state pension will exist by the time I get there.

I think people who have public sector pensions, or work with private companies who will give you a huge chunk of cash, all the real target for pension companies. I understand why those people think pensions are really important

But I'm not convinced myself that they're that important. Am I being daft?

I know my finances don't fit with a lot of people because I don't spend a lot of money, don't have kids and have basically been saving for retirement since I was about 25. Possibly earlier!

I don't factor in any possible inheritance from mum because I wouldn't be surprised if whatever government takes it away. So I wonder if I'm missing something here.

But whenever I do estimates, it just doesn't seem like the best way to invest for me.

Pensions have some pretty big advantages. They might not be the best thing for you, but make sure you know the rules and think it through then make an informed decision.

Benefits
1.Employer contribution matching - if you're lucky enough to get this, it's probably worth maxing it out since it doubles your money.

2.Marginal tax rate: you pay tax on your pension at the time you tale it, rather than now whilst you're earning. If you're in a higher tax band now than you will be in retirement, that's beneficial (and fair - since that's when you get the income!).

3.Tax free lump sum: you can take 25% of your pension tax-free, up to a maximum of £268,275. That means that if you'll be a basic rate tax payer in retirement, then your tax rate will be 15% rather than 20% (If you're a higher rate payer in retirement you'll pay 40% instead of 30% for up to £450k - but you'd need a huge pension or a lot of other wealth to be paying enough tax to get the whole lump sum at the higher rate). It's likely that this benefit will be reduced or go altogether soon. (Warning: be very careful about what happens when you take your lump sum - speak to an IFA!)

4.Interest or capital gains are tax free.- this does make quite a big difference, especially if you're a higher band tax payer and most of your investment growth gets stolen by the government! If you haven't maxed out your ISA allowance each year, then putting it in a S&S ISA will give you the same benefit

Negatives:
1.You can't take anything out of your pension before 55 currently, and that's going up soon. That means you can't easily protect yourself against whatever insanity they bring in

2.Like you said, they can change the rules at any time.

a) Loss of the tax free lump sum is likely
b) They might start charging NI - but you've already paid that on the way into your pension so you'd be paying it twice! (Totally unfair, but I have no doubt they'll spin it lie as some sort of tax break)
c)the other likely change is on tax relief on the way in. Beware: that will completely change the calculation of whether it's worth adding more into your pension, depending on exactly what they do.

3.The other thing Reeves has hinted at is insisting on S&S pension investments being at least 25% UK equities. You will have your own opinion on UK equity performance, if that does come in (and the wider risk of government interference in investments you can't withdraw until age 55/56)

Personally I think the advantages currently outweigh the negatives - especially if you can either get matching employer contributions and/or you'll be paying tax at a lower marginal rate in retirement than ypu are now and/or you've already maxed out your ISAs.

State pension

It's a bit of a no-brainer to keep your NI contributions up if you can. Whilst state pension might reduce, it's such a huge benefit (worth £250-300k) that you're unlikely to lose it all in even if they introduce means testing.

You can get your stamp for lots of reasons: being on sick pay from your employer, claiming benefits, maternity leave etc. If you're self-employed, do try to take enough earnings to get your stamp. If you do miss a year, you can pay it back, but think about whether you need to: you only need 35 qualifying years, and you get a few for free (you can look up your NI record online). Although I wouldn't be surprised if the number of qualifying years went up at some point (35 years is less than most countries)

strawberrybubblegum · 15/10/2025 23:11

EmeraldRoulette · 15/10/2025 20:55

I can barely get MN to load again so apologies to the posters I should have tagged

Yes, I do have other investments. I'm definitely not getting 8 to 9% out of them. I was using the term "pension pot" to mean traditional pension. Yes, I do have a private pension. But I haven't been putting much into it for about 10 years.

Traditional pensions seem like something that will be really great if you live to 90 or more. I never think about that because that's too horrifying an idea. I'm pretty confident it won't happen.

I have actually looked at it again this evening and once again, I feel much happier with the money NOT tucked into a vehicle that is subject to so much change. And fiddling with the projections over different amounts isn't really inspiring me.

I will be pissed off if the cash ISA limit is reduced!

Traditional pensions seem like something that will be really great if you live to 90 or more

You don't have to buy an annuity with your pension: you can draw down flexibly from it when you reach pension age. (Speak to an IFA before you take anything since it flicks a switch on what you can do!)

Most people buy an annuity with part of their pension in order to have the guaranteed income, and take some in drawdown to cover uneven expenses.

CaveMum · 15/10/2025 23:30

@CruCru I think I said on the last thread (or maybe the one before) that our IFA had told us a few weeks ago that they think that the Cash ISA allowance will be cut in order to stealthily get people to pay more tax on their savings - they know lots of people don’t feel comfortable investing in S&S so will just put their money in a high interest bank account. The result is the same sort of fiscal drag we get with not moving the income tax thresholds as people quickly use up their £1000 tax-free allowance (basic rate) on savings when interest rates are higher.

Eg when you could only get 1.5% on your savings you needed to have about £67k in cash savings before you attracted tax on your interest. With rates of 4% easily found now the amount you need in cash savings before you start paying tax drops to £25k.

It’s worse for higher rate tax payers, who only get £500 tax free - they only need to have over £12.5k in cash before they start paying tax.

CruCru · 16/10/2025 07:12

This is true. It’s more that, given the choice between bringing in a huge wealth tax, a massive hiking of inheritance tax and cutting the cash ISA allowance, I would choose the last - because it makes people feel less insecure than the first two. It won’t be enough though, obviously.

LupaMoonhowl · 16/10/2025 07:22

AbsentosaurusRex · 15/10/2025 19:13

The China Spy question - collapsed court case. One thing is for sure - Starmer is as bent as a boomerang, and cannot be trusted. As KB said ‘Badenoch questioned what the point was of having a lawyer as a leader who “can’t even get the law right on a matter of national security.” ‘ 😂🙈

Is this serious enough to be his final undoing? Let’s see what cones out in the wash in the next few days.

‘The criminal case against Christopher Cash and Christopher Berry, who were accused of spying for Beijing, fell apart last month after the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said the government provided insufficient evidence proving China was a threat to national security. Both men denied the charges, while Labour and the Tories had a predictable back-and-forth about who held responsibility.’

https://www.politico.eu/article/pmqs-keir-starmer-china-spy-case/

Love that expression ‘Bent as a boomerang’ /gonna shamelessly steal and use that today 😂😂

Nolletimiere · 16/10/2025 07:31

Rachel Reeves should cut benefits to regain credibility with bond investors, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has said.

Markets see “spending reform as a critical signal of intent” and tackling welfare spendingis seen as the “bellwether” of the Government’s resolve to repair public finances, the think tank said in a pre-Budget report.

DT

Doh!

twistyizzy · 16/10/2025 07:35

Every economic commentator in The Grauniad is unimpressed with the tiny 0.1% growth

"Economists are largely unimpressed by the modest growth of 0.1% recorded in the UK economy in August, and the 0.3% growth in June-August period.Lindsay James, investment strategist at wealth management firm Quilter, says the economy looks to be “stumbling to the end of the year”:“In the week that the International Monetary Fund gave the UK’s economic growth forecasts a small bump up, today’s GDP figures paint a picture of an economy stumbling to the end of the year after a strong start. Monthly GDP grew just 0.1%, giving a three-month rate of 0.3% - not exactly exciting figures. Markets will have been hoping for signs that the UK can maintain it’s early-year momentum but it appears that has now dissipated just as we approach a crunch Budget statement from the Chancellor. Rachel Reeves will need to find a tonic and quickly if she is to extricate the economy from its current malaise.“There are a number of obstacles coming down the track for the economy too. The IMF confirmed the UK has an inflation problem and is struggling to get out of it. That will continue to put pressure on the consumer. Meanwhile, both businesses and individuals are fearful of what is coming at November’s budget after Rachel Reeves confirmed tax rises are being looked at. Last year showed just how much impact that uncertainty can have on economic growth and now this year appears as if it will be no different.Suren Thiru, economics director at chartered accountancy group ICAEW, calls today’s growth figures ‘anaemic’:“This dishearteningly meagre return to growth will do little to allay fears over the wellbeing of the UK economy, with higher manufacturing output masking weaker activity in other sectors, notably services and construction.“August’s increase is unlikely to have triggered a noteworthy pickup in economic growth across the third quarter with higher inflation and free-falling business confidence expected to have restrained output in September.“November’s Budget is casting a long shadow over the UK economy with growing worries over more tax rises likely to prompt greater caution among consumers and businesses to spend and invest throughout the Autumn.“While a rate cut next month looks improbable, these anaemic figures mean it’s not quite a done deal as it gives those rate setters worried over economic conditions with more encouragement to vote to relax policy.”Ruth Gregory, deputy chief UK economist at Capital Economics, reckons there is little reason to think GDP growth will accelerate much from here, explaining:The meagre rise in real GDP in August suggests growth is still being hampered by high interest rates, higher taxes and soft overseas activity. With business sentiment on the floor and employment still falling, we doubt growth will improve much in Q4.Raj Badiani, economics director at S&P Global Market Intelligence, is similarly cautious:“UK economic growth is set to be muted in the next few quarters with private sector activity facing a damaging mix of external pressures, alongside increasing trepidation amid firms and consumers ahead of yet another difficult budget event. The latest short-term indicators suggest an end to the recent upward drift in the 2025 growth projection.“We expect UK real GDP growth to stand at 1.4% in 2025 and 1.0% in 2026. Despite persistent growth concerns, still-elevated earnings growth and the prospect of headline inflation rising to 4% in September are likely to rule out a further interest rate cut this year. The first-rate cut is expected to occur in February 2026 and the Bank rate to stand at 3.25% at the end of next year"

UK economy returns to growth in August with 0.1% rise in GDP – business live

Rolling coverage of the latest economic and financial news, including the latest UK growth report

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2025/oct/16/uk-gdp-economy-growth-august-reeves-budget-imf-business-live-news?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with%3Ablock-68f06a6f8f08977a11087bff#block-68f06a6f8f08977a11087bff

LupaMoonhowl · 16/10/2025 07:40

Can’t remember if I’ve posted this before, but I was planning extensive building work on my house, but have paused the scope now (form 400K to 220k) because I am not going to commit to months of work when the VAT element could be even higher than it is now.
Makes more sense to leave the cosmetic elements to be been down into smaller jobs with tradesmen who are ‘not VAT registered’, or just not bother to get those discretionary jobs done at all.
Multiply me by much bigger spenders and this uncertainty over VAT is having a massive effect on the economy.
Laffer’s curve in action.

Nolletimiere · 16/10/2025 07:42

Akin to the elastic ‘working people’ definition, the ‘wealthy’ will be anyone who works for the private sector and earns over xxk.

xx will be lowered with every budget, because, you know, the world is a changing place.

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