If you have a child with autism that can be violent..

[Colouroutsidethelines]

How do you feel when you find out they have attacked school staff? How do you respond?

I am a teaching assistant. I was playing in the garden with another staff member and four children who all have an autism or ADHD diagnosis.

The child I was playing with in the construction area is in year 4 and very articulate. We were conversing nicely, talking about his favourite cars. He then got up and walked off and before I stood up, he had gone behind me, picked up a large wooden log and cracked me hard over the head with it.

It caught me completely off guard and I did cry with the pain as I ran inside to seek first aid.

Curious to how you would respond if this was your child.

Yep.

We have 3 in my area too, all cover primary and high school. All 3 require an EHCP and global developmental delay diagnosis and 1 is for autistic children only.

My son wouldn't have a chance at any of those schools because he doesn't have a global developmental delay diagnosis.

I’m late coming to this thread. My son has ASD if he did what you experienced I’d be disappointed and apologetic that you experienced that and yes I’d be concerned about you. In reality the only child I know who does that has behaviours that I think down the line means that he is going to get diagnosed with a PD (he is 16 now the behaviours have become more extreme over the year) his mother would become aggressive, blame everyone else, excuse her child’s behaviour and become really argumentative. I have long suspected she might have a PD too. I have literally witnessed her son taking absolute delight in doing the same behaviour described in the OP. We and basically everyone I know who has ever interacted with them have been at the ends of these episodes. Some people fare better than others out of them. It is extremely sad for everyone dealing with it.

Try the previous decade. Closures of maintained special schools happened in response to the 1981 Education Act. According to Hansard there were 37 closed in England and 3 in Wales. Ostensibly this was to raise standards by introducing the concept of SEN statements (now EHCP’s).

Many of the SEN ‘places’ now available will actually be within units at mainstream schools. Most EHCP’s are written with a view to the child remaining in mainstream.

@flawlessflipper i know. As I’ve said, I still disagree that OP shouldn’t feel hurt or upset by the incident. I think parents of children with challenging behaviour can find it very hard to admit that their child’s behaviour is, objectively, capable of causing hurt and upset but it is something that’s distressing irrespective of the child’s needs. Their needs provide some explanation and insight, but they cannot be an excuse.

At the least, if you understand the complex emotions of children presenting with, or with diagnosed SEN you must surely be able to understand the very human and rational reaction of feeling upset at violence and physical pain experienced by an adult in response to an incident. I think it’s hypocritical to acknowledge the complexities of the child whilst denying the emotions of the adult.

@RedSkyatNight25 if you know I am confused why you posted “What’s to say this child has SEN?” and mentioned “no diagnosed SEN”. The child clearly meets the legal definition of having SEN.

The rest of your last post is a separate matter to the question from your previous post that I replied to. I didn’t deny the emotions of the adult.

We have one 2-19 provision that caters for ASC, PMLD and GDD. My son is in it, having tried mainstream for Reception and absolutely not coping.

He was in a hub, it wasn’t enough. It was never going to be but LA pushed to try it anyway, incase he could cope and therefore not use a precious SENd space.

The only reason he has 2:1 is because otherwise his school wouldn’t be able to meet need, and paying for 2x TAs is cheaper than moving him to a more expensive provision and paying for the transport to get him there.

We’ve got one secondary PRU, which he wouldn’t qualify for because of his level of need, and one Autism specific school that he’s also “too disabled” for.

We have a choice of one. That has approx 250 children. Once those spaces are full, that’s it, there’s nowhere else for anyone to go.

Like many areas children like mine are in the very limited SENd provision, and anyone with less need is in mainstream or additionally resourced hubs.

It comes from a place of being “in it.”

I can’t express genuinely enough that in schools that cater for children with additional needs and behaviour en masse, or homes that those children live in, it is generally less distressing because it is almost expected.

When I worked in specialist provision, it’s essentially part of the job to manage situations like OP describes. You do get used to it.

Whether you should or not is a different matter. But you do. Very few specialist staff would go home devastated about violence from children.

If I was emotionally affected by behavioural incidents, I’d have been moved away from them for the wellbeing of everyone, and put with children who present less challenge.

We’d be informed if our son hit someone. We are informed when he bites. But aside from a heads up and the relevant paperwork being filled in, that’s it.

It is also worth noting there is an increasing number of CYP with EOTAS/EOTIS/C packages. This isn’t the cheap option some seem to think it is. It can be incredibly expensive.

It is also ironic that some of those people who object to DC with SEN being in MS with their children also object to these DC receiving EOTAS/EOTIS/C. They don’t want them in class with their DC but neither do they want them to receive provision that means they aren’t because it is costly.

A PP solved that issue upthread @flawlessflipper with the enlightened suggestion of 'warehouses'. <slow handclap>

Terrifying to see this suggested for disabled children on a parenting site tbh.

Well Said
👏

Terrifying indeed.

Even if one accepts that ‘warehousing’ is an appropriate suggestion for anyone, and it is clearly not but let’s pretend for a moment, it is highly unlikely to be appropriate for those with EOTAS/EOTIS/C since the whole reason they have EOTAS/EOTIS/C is because it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school/college. The reasons it is inappropriate are numerous and varied, but for many, the reasons will equally apply to a ‘warehouse’.

My son is thriving in mainstream but only because he has the correct support which also includes 2:1. Without that, it just wouldn't be possible and it's also a good job considering he'd have no chance of getting a place at a special school.

@SleeplessInWherever

I am “in it” and I know that the staff who deal with my relative do sometimes find their behaviour distressing.

So whilst I do and have moved on from previous violent incidents. I do get upset sometimes. Especially the particularly violent attacks. My relative is now bigger than me and as they’ve grown it’s got harder and harder because the consequences of their behaviour and the physical damage is greater. It’s scary when someone can overpower you in a violent rage.

I agree
Also, I often wonder, how will it be when they are not children anymore ?
Genuinely I wonder that.

People don’t generally let their children off the hook for hitting people.

We teach them not to, it just takes longer.

Gentle parenting also doesn’t work on those “types” of children because it relies too heavily on understanding emotions and empathy, and involves too many words.

My experience is that as they get older they are excluded more and more from wider society and become really socially isolated. My relative is isolated even within their own home, from the rest of their siblings, because their rages put them in danger too. They cannot nip to the shops, their behaviour is too unpredictable and they put the public at risk. That means other outings are also out the question. Their parents struggle to get them to even medical appointments etc.

Perhaps some of it is unavoidable, because of their complex emotional and health needs. But I know that much of this behaviour has been enforced (and the likes of professionals have alas the same) by meeting their demands at an early age. So we really do our children a disservice by not doing absolutely everything in other power to manage and reduce those behaviours. It’s really sad when you see a teenager shunted in an annex because they can’t be around their family.

I imagine that everyone who knows me would laugh heartily at the idea that I am a “gentle” parent (or anything else). My DN’s (now adults) used to call me the Kaiser! I now line-manage a large team including some tricky characters in a unionized manufacturing environment.

It didn’t stop my DS being profoundly autistic and (at times) physically violent to me and others. I don’t think children with neurodevelopmental disabilities will ever get their needs met as long as there are people seemingly chomping at the bit to blame it on crap parenting.

I would give anything for DS not to be disabled. The idea that I would just not bother with boundaries and discipline as his parent is almost as laughable as it is offensive.

@Vinvertebrate sadly there are crap parents wherever their children lie on the spectrum.

@RedSkyatNight25

You’re right on the last point. Teaching children that they can have whatever they want backs adults into a dangerous corner.

If you’re frightened of a child, they will eventually pick up on that and unfortunately use it to their advantage. They’ll learn that if I just throw a chair, or punch someone, I can get my own way.

Having the resilience to not show them, or teach them, that you’re scared or hurt by them is really very difficult. But anything else just leaves you on the back foot and being held to ransom.

Kids are like dogs, they can smell fear. Your best bet is to not show them any.

My question regarding warehousing related to children that are violent and not safe to be around other children.

It's clearly unreasonable and dangerous to mix these violent children with non-violent children when the triggers are 'don't turn your back on them' or 'don't be at a lower level then them'. It precludes any safe mixing with the general school population, so what's the point of them being in the school?

Warehousing the violent kids in a safe but basic/cheap environment, to provide parental/sibling respite, should IMHO be an option. The current system clearly isn't working and is financially unsustainable.

Whether the parents of SEN kids like it or not, non-SEN kids need to get a decent education and that costs money. It's dependent upon a calm and safe school. SEN spending of £100k per year upon children that will probably never have a job is a poor allocation of limited resources.

If the non-SEN kids don't get a good education, who is going to be funding the care of these SEN kids as adults?

As I said earlier in the thread, my brother is brain damaged and had a 1:1 classroom assistant in primary and secondary school. That obviously cost money, but he wasn't disruptive or a danger to other children.

Sorry, what?

Why does the environment have to be “basic/cheap,” and the focus be exclusively respite?

Children like mine learn. They learn slower, and they learn differently, but they learn.

Why would that be taken from him, and be replaced by a basic provision that just houses him so we can get some rest (work, but still).

Do those children not deserve the opportunity to learn and develop?

If all you mean is that they should be in a suitable separate provision, agreed - that’s what resourced hubs and SEN schools are for.

But it sounds like you’re suggesting withdrawing resources and giving them the cheaper basics, with no intention of any learning going on.

"I was violently attacked?"

If someone used that phrase about my son I would think they didn't understand his needs and shouldn't be working with him. My son was in specialist though and that way of thinking wouldn't have been accepted there.

People who resent spending money on DC with SEN are shortsighted. They fail to realise DC who do not have their needs met as CYP will cost the state more in adult life.

Without support now, many will need a greater amount of support throughout adult life.
For example:
It can be the difference between needing a residential placement or not.
It can be the difference between contact with the justice system or not
It can be the difference between requiring 2:1 support in the community or only 1:1 support as an adult.
Or the difference between 24/7 support and support for only part of the time.
For some, it can be the difference between working and not working.

Education is important for all.

‘Warehousing’ wouldn’t be cheap.

"Warehousing the violent kids in a safe but basic/cheap environment, to provide parental/sibling respite, should IMHO be an option. "

I am getting echos of the 1940s with that warehousing comment.

and children are less likely to be violent on a consistent basis to the point it's unmanageable if they are in the correct place with correct support which yes, is unlikely going to be cheap.

But we can't have SEN children in places they are unable to cope with due to their disability, act surprised when they then lash out, decide they aren't worthy of any education and write them off to save some money.