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Thread 32 Starmer - Corn Moon

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 06/09/2025 11:34

Pull up a chair for some friendly chit chat about politics and beyond

Taxes optional but greatly appreciated.

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https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5402603-thread-31-starmer-september-rain?page=40&reply=146949615

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Jason118 · 14/09/2025 11:53

Clive Lewis MP posted this on his Facebook. Thought provoking and we probably all know people who fit a similar profile.

“Believe it or not, I had an old school friend on today’s marches in London. He sent me some photos from the crowd.

We went to middle school together and grew up on the same Eastern District council estate in Northampton.

I asked him why he was there. He gave me two answers:

  1. “The government doesn’t listen to us.”
  2. “I want to feel proud of my country again.”

He wore a Union Jack, not a St George’s Cross as he said that one had been hijacked by racists.

He wasn’t there for Hopkins, Musk, or any of the professional grifters’ as he put it. He was there to feel part of something bigger, though he admitted there were a lot of, in his words, “assholes” there.

He’s an electrician. He’s smart. He’s not racist, but he’s not “PC” either. He’s not a fan of Keir Starmer but he also believes Farage would be a disaster.

Oh yes, he’s a bundle of contradictions! But aren’t we all?

I don’t know what ‘box’ we put him or the millions like him in. And I think pretending they’re all racists or fascists would be a massive mistake.

Some were. But not all.

This is about something bigger than immigration slogans or GDP numbers. For decades we’ve hollowed out our national life, underfunding and undermining the very institutions that once brought us together.

Karl Polanyi, writing in The Great Transformation, argued that when markets are “disembodied” from society, when land, labour, and life itself are treated as commodities
society pushes back. He called this the “double movement”: people seeking to protect themselves, to reclaim dignity and meaning when everything solid seems to melt into air.

That’s what I saw in my friend’s photos. Not just anger, but a demand for belonging.

We’ve replaced collective experience with atomisation. Without getting too nostalgic, programmes like the BBC’s Generation Game once pulled in millions every Saturday night, giving us something we could all talk about on Monday morning. Now we watch Netflix, Disney+, Prime, or Paramount, alone, in algorithmic silos.

Football used to be affordable and rooted in community; now it’s millionaires playing for the profitability of billionaires. The NHS, the post office, the railways - all chipped away, run down, sold off or centralised, leaving people feeling powerless and disconnected.

And don’t get me wrong: some kind of “Hovis Labour” nostalgia for the 1950s isn’t the answer. The country back then was often intolerant, grey, and deeply unequal. But what we’ve built since is a society that gives people little to hold in common, no collective story about who we are or what we’re for.

I reckon that’s partly why my mate marched. Not because he wants to turn back the clock. But because he wants to feel pride again. Pride in a country that is inclusive, fair, and offers a role for everyone. Pride in a nation that has a respected place in the world, tackles grotesque inequality, and gives people something real to believe in.

Polanyi warned that when democracies fail to provide a humane alternative, the backlash can turn authoritarian. This is how fascism grew in the 1930s, not because everyone became a true believer, but because millions felt abandoned and looked for strength, identity, and meaning wherever they could find it.

If Labour and progressives don’t offer that story of renewal, if we don’t rebuild our national institutions, restore collective pride, and re-embed markets within society, the far right will do it for us, in their own image.

And by then, it will be too late.”

cardibach · 14/09/2025 12:02

I think Lewis is spot on there @Jason118. But a racist narrative is taking hold all the same. Maybe that’s what he means by the last paragraph.

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:10

I don't know, to me a sense of belonging doesn't mean attending a march organised by racists.

Lot of waffle and excuses imo

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DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:17

Ed Davey

Elon Musk openly called for violence on our streets yesterday.

I hope politicians from all parties come together to condemn his deeply dangerous and irresponsible rhetoric.

Britain must stand united against this clear attempt to undermine our democracy.

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Piggywaspushed · 14/09/2025 12:18

I like Clive Lewis. But I have no idea what he is talking about in the final paragraph. Polanski ( not this Polanyi guy) seems to already be getting on social media and fighting the Right with their own tactics. Social Medua, perhaps sadly, is the hearts and minds arena.

Piggywaspushed · 14/09/2025 12:19

I think what he says about football is crap. Plenty of ordinary people were at the football yesterday.

Piggywaspushed · 14/09/2025 12:20

The Hopkins thing distresses me. A few years ago the woman was utterly vilified.

bombastix · 14/09/2025 12:23

@Jason118 yes I think that is on the nose. Fascism rises because there is a dearth of hope and it offers structure and a false sense of strength. The reason to oppose it is the tyranny it brings, but when it starts, it will offer jobs, structure, order, standards, and clarity against a usually complex and crumbling democracy that has significant problems.

The UK is vulnerable partly because we do have a lot of problems but in large part I think we do not, both on the left and right, really look at these issues with a view to what our society should look like. This is the vision thing that really successful political parties have. Neither Labour or the Conservatives have it.

The party that does increasingly have it is Reform. We know their vision. Britain unchained from Blairite equality laws. The end of boats. Diversity and inclusion finished, and cuts to social spending. Removal of censorship laws. Greater links with the US.

We can all pick at Reform but this is the reason they are 10 points ahead. Labour may be hoping if they do enough good things they can cobble together a popular vote against them. But that is a risky strategy.

The Conservatives are toast until they elect Jenrick. In a way it would help Labour if they did. Currently they don’t represent a decent opposition and are just bleeding their vote to Reform.

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:28

I agree @Piggywaspushed

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cardibach · 14/09/2025 12:39

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:10

I don't know, to me a sense of belonging doesn't mean attending a march organised by racists.

Lot of waffle and excuses imo

Edited

I agree that marching with racists is unwise if you aren’t one. But I also think it’s not a good idea to assume everyone who went is racist - hopefully the very clearly racist time of the speeches will make them think again. What I meant about him being spot on was the way people are thinking, and that it’s that we need to tackle.
I’m still not sure what the government listening would look like though, since they seem to be saying exactly what Farage and Co want. I’ve asked on at least one thread but had no answer.

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:48

I disagree, that march was organised by racists, if you join it, you condone their racist views.

Their worries about immigration aren't about immigrants like me.

OP posts:
GabrielsOboe · 14/09/2025 12:50

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:48

I disagree, that march was organised by racists, if you join it, you condone their racist views.

Their worries about immigration aren't about immigrants like me.

I’m calling BS on that.

Hugely disrespectful to those who joined, and who do not condone racism. A shameful comment, in fact.

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:53

GabrielsOboe · 14/09/2025 12:50

I’m calling BS on that.

Hugely disrespectful to those who joined, and who do not condone racism. A shameful comment, in fact.

You would, I don't care.

I wondered if you would pop here after your run

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Namitynamename · 14/09/2025 12:54

cardibach · 14/09/2025 12:39

I agree that marching with racists is unwise if you aren’t one. But I also think it’s not a good idea to assume everyone who went is racist - hopefully the very clearly racist time of the speeches will make them think again. What I meant about him being spot on was the way people are thinking, and that it’s that we need to tackle.
I’m still not sure what the government listening would look like though, since they seem to be saying exactly what Farage and Co want. I’ve asked on at least one thread but had no answer.

The whole selling point of the march was "uniting the kingdom" and "having pride on the UK" etc which on paper aren't that bad. When you see people interviewed about why they were there it's a mix of reasons:

  • feeling part of something
-Loss of identity/pride
  • grievance at not being listened to/respected
  • Immigration eroding culture
  • immigrants getting housing etc while normal British people don't
  • Attacks on women and girls safety
  • generalised grievance

If you take everyone at their word then most people weren't there for racist reasons. The problem is there is a clever trick going on where on the one hand the narrative is, people just want to show pride in their country, the flag isn't racist etc etc. But on the other hand, the presence of all the people at the march waving the flag etc proves that Tommy Robinson's (racist) talking points are accepted. It's deliberately hard to nail down and so just adds to the sense of division.

The problem is there are very real grievances. But if you have someone with a sign saying "white people are tired of being disrespected". It's actually impossible to make someone who feels disrespected feel respected if they don't want you to. It's not just about practical improvements. On a smaller scale I was in a relationship with someone who felt I didn't "respect" him and you can tie yourself in knots trying to show them you do - but the note you try the more convinced they are they were right. So I am probably having an overly emotional reaction to that. I just think that the government pandering to those people won't work but it's not because I (in my ivory tower) think they are stupid/racist or not worth listening to.

GabrielsOboe · 14/09/2025 12:56

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 12:53

You would, I don't care.

I wondered if you would pop here after your run

Good, because you need wonder no more.

Speaking of free speech, I will never be silenced - but I think you know me, by now.

Piggywaspushed · 14/09/2025 12:58

I have never met a racist who says they are racist. There's a reason why none of the racist groups have that word in their name. This was different in the 30s when racialism was a declared set of beliefs. Right up to the 80s, you could meet people who declared themselves 'racialists' .

MaybeNotBob · 14/09/2025 12:59

GabrielsOboe · 14/09/2025 12:56

Good, because you need wonder no more.

Speaking of free speech, I will never be silenced - but I think you know me, by now.

Who was looking to silence you?

Ah, this is the typical right wing "freeze peach" nonsense they trot out when someone disagrees with them.

DuncinToffee · 14/09/2025 13:03

I think they are worried we start talking books or recipes or maybe even football

I thoroughly enjoyed our Senegalese showing off his skill yesterday, and watching our Englishman's calves Wink

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Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 14/09/2025 13:08

Well I'm just back from church (CofE for the avoidance of any doubt) and topically the sermon was based around the text 'love thy neighbour'.
Seemed strangely appropriate somehow.
I'm sure all the marchers yesterday will be at their churches reflecting on that this morning.

Piggywaspushed · 14/09/2025 13:12

With their wooden crosses.

PandoraSocks · 14/09/2025 13:16

MaybeNotBob · 14/09/2025 12:59

Who was looking to silence you?

Ah, this is the typical right wing "freeze peach" nonsense they trot out when someone disagrees with them.

It took me a moment to work out freeze peach 🤣

(Have sent you a pm about something).

countrygirl99 · 14/09/2025 13:18

I always wonder exactly what part of British culture the complainants are talking about losing. Morris dancing? Maypoles? Wassailing? Or chicken/scampi in a basket as a meal out?

PandoraSocks · 14/09/2025 13:23

Personally I wish we could lose the rain 🌧 part of British culture. It is starting to get me down.

LlttledrummergirI · 14/09/2025 13:30

I always wonder that as well. For years people laughed at Morris dancers, the only time I have seen country dancing is at an event organised for primary school children, do a couple of hours a year.

Guy fawkes, wassailing, Easter parades, maypole dancing on mayday. Ffs, people complain about the church bells ringing.

How many employers will support traditions like village cricket games that last a week? Can we also bring back the no eating in the street tradition? Picnics and fetes/street parties excluded.

bombastix · 14/09/2025 13:33

@Namitynamename - I agree with your post. It is about “pride” which can then be drawn into an explicit racialist narrative which is what Tommy Robinson is really about.

I am probably well to the right of most posters here on immigration, and legal migration. I don’t think I ever had substantial concerns about it until we left the EU. The migration policy of the Conservative government was a disaster in sheer numbers. I can understand the economic case, but politically, it was a serious mistake after a Brexit vote which had a strong undercurrent of anti migration in support of leaving.

You can see the residual effect of this in the mainstream parties now. They look like they follow Reform because actually they do!

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