Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

“The innocence conspiracy”

Is this you admitting that you believe there is a conspiracy?

There's also this...it's clear that they are not all in agreement at all, they're all saying different things, so what you were saying about this being textbook is completely inaccurate.
https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-inside-the-mind-of-a-serial-killer-the-psychology-behind-healthcare-murderers-12941902

Also important to note that they're assessing her behaviour on the assumption that she is guilty, behaviour can obviously mean something completely different if someone is guilty than what it means if they are innocent.

If someone thinks she's innocent there can only be so many reasons for that ranging from she's a scapegoat (conspiracy theory) to she was suspected of harm because of her proximity to all the collapses and deaths but it was either pure bad luck or incompetence. But if these are all "assumptions" please feel free to tell me what other options there are. Perhaps you think they just picked Lucy out to take the fall for a laugh...

Labouring under the blessedly naive idea that the CPS aren’t invested in doing what they can to secure convictions I imagine.

Actually, that’s worse than blessedly naive, because of course they do. It isn’t even hidden or controversial. It’s how it works.

Do you think all NHS scapegoating cases are conspiracies?

Interesting take. Piping hot.

No, why would I? I thought she'd already tried to appeal, twice, and lost.

I’m guessing you didn’t read the posts from a NICU nurse earlier….

Anyhoo, really really wouod like to know if you would support the removal of any and all appeals remedies from our judicial system….

Ok. So you support remedies to appeal verdicts.

Which convicted criminal would you deem to be worthy of accessing the appeals system. Because you certainly don’t think LL should be allowed to.

None of them involve murder rather than just admitting a hospital needs improvements do they? Wonder why...

She applied to appeal twice and was not allowed to appeal.

So did the vast majority of miscarriage of justice victims btw. Again, not the first time you’ve been told this.

@Firefly1987

But you think she's innocent so either you concede she was a terrible nurse and consultants assumed deliberate harm based on this (which the police and CPS agreed with) or the hospital was so bad they decided to pin it on one lone nurse. Then the police also agreed, and Dewi Evans et al. if that isn't a conspiracy involving multiple people and institutions I don't know what is. You're careful to stop short of ever saying people conspired against LL, but it's the only conclusion one can make from your posts. Especially re the insulin evidence.

It's the only conclusion that you can make from the posts, because you keep deciding you know what what people believe and why they believe it, because you completely refuse to them actually explaining it to you.

Which cases are you talking about Firefly, and what differentiates them from this in terms of the mechanics of scapegoating?

It seems like you’re still labouring under the idea that scapegoating is a simple case of one person going “pssst. Let’s fit her over there up and f*ck off down the pub 👍🏻 “

Thats not how it works. It’s complex, intricate, and often largely (or wholly) unconscious.

So it’s murderers then? Those are the ones who shouldn’t be allowed to appeal? Just murderes who are NHS workers?

Just fyi I think this comment referred to scapegoating, not the appeals process.

I think it was fairly obvious that those appeals weren't going to be allowed anyway. I don't think anyone thought that she had a chance of getting an appeal heard then.

As far as I recall from when I read about the appeals process you generally need to have already tried to appeal before you go to the CRCC, I saw the initial attempts to appeal as a formality, It was obviously always going to have to go to the CRCC.

“It's the only conclusion that you can make from the posts, because you keep deciding you know what what people believe and why they believe it, because you completely refuse to them actually explaining it to you.”

Quite! It would help if firefly ever actually listened to us instead of telling us what we think.

You’re correct. The CoA are extremely reluctant to question jury trials, especially in high profile cases, so they frequently refuse applications to appeal.

Some people go through life expecting the worof and people to work only via the lens through which they experience the world. They can’t comprehend people thinking differently to them or how they think other people think. It’s really egocentric and rigid.

@Kittybythelighthouse Before the international panel press conference it was at best a footnote on page 16 somewhere in other countries out side the UK. England is not the centre of the universe I’m afraid.

Neither is Australia but everyone knows the Erin Patterson case-it was widely covered in the UK and around the world I'm sure. I think if other countries couldn't bother to report on one of the biggest trials in UK history we might as well not exist at all never mind be the "centre of the universe". You're just starting to sound a bit deluded now if you think this case wasn't newsworthy elsewhere until Shoo Lee piped up. How do you even know?! You really do talk a lot about things you can't possibly have any idea about. But I'm sure you read everything, so that includes every paper in the world, in all the different languages to so confidently state this was barely covered. Or you're just basing all of this on your one relative who happens to live under a rock...

I know - but I think yhd two are very closely linked, for firefly snyway

Honestly the circular reasoning here is giving me a migraine.

Firefly believes Lucy Letby is guilty, has a mysterious yet undiagnosed or observed psychopaths, that Dewi Evans has uttered nothing but the truth, that even if the unit was riddled with leprosy / bubonic plague, any deaths were definitely down to Lucy Letby, everything posited by the prosecution and their experts is gospel truth second only to the tenets of Mormonism handed down on gold plates, and all the babies were robust and bouncing, plus anyone uttering a shred of doubt about the case, including multiple qualified experts is either a conspiracy theorist or on a par with Lucy Letby intent on making the parents suffer for our own twisted pleasure.

Have I missed anything?

It's beginning to feel like water torture.

She’s guilty bevause she’s guilty - we don’t know exactly how, but that doesn’t matter bevause she’s guilty.

Dveb Dewi Evabx doesnt knis how abx diesng think it matters how, Becsuse she’s guilty…somehow….

You missed ‘pretty, blonde, young..middle aged men and yhd rest of the Workd falling iver themselves to her rescue…’

I didn't have time to fully answer this earlier, but yes, I'm aware of the issues mentioned.

Pseudomonas is commonly found in water and pipes. A lot of hospitals are old, poorly maintained buildings, with old, poorly maintained plumbing systems. Many NICU's don't use tap water because of the risk of pseudomonas to preterm babies. Handwashing with water needs to be followed by decontamination of hands using alcohol gel, and babies are often washed in sterile water. I don't know what the practice was in CoCH.

The sewage is unpleasant, unsafe, and also due to old, poorly maintained pipes. Probably more common than you'd think actually. Sanitary towels, and paper hand towels are often flushed and block pipes causing pipes to back up.

Despite nursing training being university based these days, it's still very much "learn on the job". You need the hands-on experience. Letby was one of the only band 5 QIS l think? With staffing issues, she might have been the best placed nurse to care for any given baby. Or perhaps some more senior nurses were more confident and able to decline to care for babies they felt were beyond their scope of practice? I don't remember ever reading anything to suggest that though.

Yes @Firefly1987 you mentioned earlier that you believed you had BPD/EUPD.
I am not saying this as a dig or gotcha moment but are you aware that an inability to see other peoples point of view and black and white thinking is a feature of this disorder, and not just about people and close relationships, but also about other things.

People have explained to you time and time again, most of the time patiently, but sometimes people are getting annoyed, and then going back to trying to patiently explain, but you simply refuse to take on board what people say about their own thoughts and you're extremely dogmatic with your views.