Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

So….you think that these bags are plucked from the fridge, wrapping is pulled off, bag is spiked and hung?

LL accused one of her colleagues? That’s interesting - citation, please.

If neither side shows evidence either way, then that's the definition of reasonable doubt, no?

In effect she was convicted on the basis of "we think" and "because we say so" because even if there is very weak circumstantial evidence around the alleged event, if your only proof is a test that by definition should be repeated/a different test done and the original test is not suitable for forensic purposes, then years down the line it's all very tenuous and therefore doesn't meet the threshold for "beyond reasonable doubt".

No, it's definitely up to the prosecution, well it would/should have happened at the investigative stage, absolutely everything should have been checked out thoroughly at that stage, and then the prosecution would also tend to use that in court when they're presenting the evidence to the jury.

It's definitely not the done thing to just throw theories out without actually checking that aspects of the theories are correct.

For this trial it seems like neither side bothered to fact check certain things or see if they stood up to scrutiny. It's bizarre.

“She was there when the first bag was hung, she had ample time and opportunity to spike the bags.”

The very same is true of several staff members. This doesn’t point to LL in particular. It isn’t evidence. In the same vein:

• Texts that someone else sent her aren’t evidence.

• Asking obvious/helpful questions isn’t evidence.

“The unit went through 6 vials of insulin which was double the year before.”

1. No insulin was missing. Insulin that was used is not insulin that was missing.
2. The year before they weren’t a Level 2 NICU, taking in either the same number or acuity of premature baby. That’s why more insulin was used.

This is also not evidence. The prosecution didn’t even argue that it was.

“I think that about covers it.”

Covers about as much as a Kardashian’s awards show outfit tbh.

The truth is that there is no evidence to link LL to the insulin cases.

So why, do you think, did they suspect her in the first place in order to argue that she went through all sorts of complicated manoeuvres to achieve poisoning from a distance, while at home asleep, and somehow managing not to leave a trace of evidence behind?

@MargaretThursday
Surely you can see that if an apparently healthy baby with no complications can have a collapse then a sick baby in NICU can too?
You're going to say "oh but there were lots", please don't repeat the lie that she was there for every baby collapse because you've been told many times that isn't true. But the fact is in NICU these babies aren't healthy, otherwise they would not be there.

It doesn't sound like the same situation as an NICU unit with babies being constantly monitored. SIDS happens. I'm not sure it's comparable. I think I'll trust the experts on this.

I've been "told"? Where is this source she wasn't there for all deaths? I didn't say every collapse I specified deaths. They'd already noticed this pattern way before the police investigation! No one seems to know if there were any deaths she wasn't present for (depending on who you believe) so no one is being "told" here lol.

I think this case scares you. Not because you think she is guilty, but actually the thought of her being innocent. Because if she's innocent then this situation could happen to you, or your family, or maybe the opposite, the criminal convicted for a crime near you might not be correct so the real criminal is out there still.

Yeah no that's really not it. This case will NEVER happen to anyone else unless they're deliberately harming babies. I'm not sure why people just don't get this. Do you not just think maybe people think there's enough overwhelming evidence to believe she's guilty? Why is that so hard to believe?

https://jollycontrarian.substack.com/p/lucy-letby-the-insulin-smoking-gun

An interesting blog piece.

Something else that it brings up is that given the alleged volume of insulin administered, how did these babies survive given their vulnerabilities and conditions? It's great that they did of course, but if the intention was to kill, it's a bit of a fail.

In fact one could argue that after the first one survived, a determined and psychopathic killer might double down for the next "attack".

And the "saviour" complex theory doesn't apply as she went off shift for the conclusion of the first baby's collapse, so didn't get her "fix" of drama.

And yes, sometimes I hate the way my brain works too. But I had to learn this way of thinking during my own case, so here we are.

@Firefly1987

Yeah no that's really not it. This case will NEVER happen to anyone else unless they're deliberately harming babies. I'm not sure why people just don't get this. Do you not just think maybe people think there's enough overwhelming evidence to believe she's guilty? Why is that so hard to believe?

Because the standard of evidence that put her away was terrible. It didn't even prove that any crimes were committed, let alone that she was the one who committed any.
On top of that there is another extremely plausible reason for why the collapses and deaths happened.

It's really not difficult to understand.

One of the parents testimonies in the Thirlwall inquiry read like a whole list of issues with the hospital and the care, that made up nearly all of the testimony of that parent, and then it was like the judge went 'ah but you didn't know LL was working that night at the time did you?'.

I've been thinking for a while that had to be Dewi Evans - this post just about convinces me. They seem totally unaware that the expert panel weren't trawled for by the defence

@Londonmummy66 you've got to be kidding me 😆go ahead and go through my previous posts where I talk about periods, ovulating and worrying about being in perimenopause 😆I seriously think Dewi Evans has better things to do than post on mumsnet. He doesn't need to, he did his job and helped put her away. But I'm flattered anyone thinks I could possibly be anywhere near as intelligent as a medical expert tbh!

I agree. Whether or not you think she did it the consultants behaved abysmally. I’d argue that they actually behaved even worse if she is guilty.

But for some reason people who say they are absolutely certain she’s guilty never have a bad word to say about the consultants.

It’s weird that.

Almost as if the whole thing starts falling apart once you start looking critically at the consultants.

@Firefly1987 I don't think it was a compliment 😂

I think she was joking. FWIW I know you’re not Evans because you’re not an obvious supervillain.

There was no insulin spike. It's a very wild fantasy based on previous cases.

Shoo Lee and others explains this one. The explanation is plausible and more plausible in fact than Lucy Letby changing her supposed MO.

So SIDS happens, but very unwell babies in a NICU that didn’t have the resources to have the right to call itself a level 2 unit, where Jr doctors were pretty much left to their devices, that had sewage flooding it including its sinks on a regular basis, that had pseudomonas in its taps, that regularly didn’t have the correct commonly used supplies on hand, that only had consultant rounds twice per week, that had had an email from a consultant sent to members of the executive warning that something was going to break and it was going to be bad if they didn’t do something about the understaffing, that had been inspected by the RCPCH and they highlighted inadequate staffing and poor decision making as features of their inspection, do not die?

okie dokie

Yeah..If Jayarams story is to be believed he already suspected Letby was harming babies, walked in on her after harming baby K, then left her alone with her to attack her 2 more times, he even left the ward at one point didn't he to go to another part of the hospital to prepare for the next day, leaving LL there even though he'd just caught her attacking a baby.

Where were his balls?

“I think I'll trust the experts on this.”

Which ones? The pathologists who did the actual post mortems at the time, examining the actual bodies, and found only natural causes?

The retired paediatrician who, years later, diagnosed murder “within ten minutes” of looking at the actual notes that the actual pathologists made when they found only natural causes after examining the actual bodies in full post mortems?

The panel of world leading experts from internationally renowned hospitals who examined everything the retired paediatrician did and found no evidence whatsoever of murder or inflicted harm, just like the actual pathologists?

It’s a toughie!

Ooh, breaking news - Phil Hammond has posted on X that something will be revealed next week regarding why the old defence experts weren't called.

Seen on another forum.

An innocent young woman is rotting in jail and it's becoming more and more obvious. I think it's the biggest miscarriage of justice in recent decades world wide.

It also does the poor parents no justice whatsoever to believe (likely falsely IMHO) that their poor sons and daughters were murdered instead of died as a result of hospital negligence. Equally tragic, but one much harder to live with. And they're being allowed to have to believe this.

Our justice system will probably never allow her freedom . Because in order to do so "fresh evidence" is needed. And if all Shoo lee and others evidence was already there, and just not called upon at the time, it doesn't count.

Imagine a world where the bar for intelligence is Dewi Evans - the man who managed to inadvertently make the Single Bullet Theory appear plausible.

Yeah but I'm taking it as one! 😏

Or Dr Marnerides, who up until August 22nd 2022 agreed with the PM findings for baby C…

He'd be chuffed 😂

“There was no insulin spike. It's a very wild fantasy based on previous cases.”

Exactly this @SquishedMallow

If it weren’t for the other cases LL wouldn’t be linked to the insulin cases because there is zero evidence to link her to them.

More to the point, nobody except LL would be suspected of intentional harm in those cases because there is no evidence that anyone poisoned those babies, because no one did. which is why those “incidents” raised exactly zero eyebrows at the time.

I listened to him present something. He's an outdated out of practice old country boy.

LL was either in that much internal despair and had just 'given up' trying to fight a losing battle that she stopped 'fighting' (i.e not pushing for experts of high calibre etc ) and just allowed it all to be done for her.

Or, someone or many people of importance were encouraged to secure a guilty verdict. (Outcome would be one person's life sacrificed to save billions in compensation and even more billions shutting down a hospital neonatal unit and forcing the "traffic" into a neighboring hospital) And furthermore law suits and trials and yet more millions bringing NHS managers and senior drs to account. Causing mass panic and distrust nationwide NHS wise , and causing public unrest and requests to inspect every neonatal unit and overhaul policies and procedures (more billions).

What will you do ?
Lucy Letby (fall guy- maybe a million or two spent in total on trial and bed and board )
Or billions upon billions and all that goes with it on the latter ?

Maybe that choice was indeed made.

Not just biggest, the most amateur.
If this does ever end up being ruled as a miscarriage of justice then my god is it going to be an embarrassment for a lot of people.

She could potentially go down the inadequate defence route, but we'll have to wait and see.
@MistressoftheDarkSide
That private eye piece is going to be very interesting. (hopefully).