Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

As I've explained, the accusation of excess milk is based on wilful misinterpretation of a medical note.

“They got someone to demonstrate it is in fact possible to tamper with these bags in court”

Are you claiming that someone physically demonstrated how it is possible to bypass two tamper evident safety mechanisms in the courtroom by using the actual bags etc? Your sources are trash my friend. Sorry!

“It makes no sense that the baby vomited far more milk than she should ever have been given AND had milk still left in her stomach. A baby of that size should never have projectile vomited so violently.”

It was Lucy Letby herself who documented the volume aspirated after Baby G vomited (no one recorded the volume of vomit). If she were truly this calculating note-forger and manipulator who concealed her presence, why would she suddenly choose that moment to be truthful? Why not simply record a smaller, fabricated amount? Again she is stupid when you need her to be. Likewise, why supposedly lurk at Baby D’s cot for half an hour before injecting air, only to then sign her name in the notes at the very time she was meant to have carried it out? The logic doesn’t hold. A much simpler, more plausible explanation is that Baby G was already deteriorating due to infection, vomiting being an early sign, as even Evans admitted that blood cultures often don’t pick this up straightaway.

Nurse Simpson herself said at Thirlwall that there were other possible reasons for Baby G’s vomiting. She agreed with Letby’s notes regarding Baby G and explained what her notation meant.

thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0018064.pdf

Murder is the least likely explanation here, particularly the novel method of murder by overfeeding, which has no precedent in the medical literature and has been rubbished by other medical experts as even being possible. It has embarrassingly been walked back by the lead expert witness (after LL was convicted of it!). You would benefit from taking in information outside of your chosen biased sources. They are making you look like an idiot, frankly.

It didn’t happen. So no.

I didn’t think so.

@Firefly1987 - care to provide a citation?

How many times do parents need to come out and say they find all this speculation upsetting? What do the rest of them need to speak out on? The police won't speak out, neither will the jury. Evans was just interviewed for Panorama. Brearey and Jayaram can't speak out atm because of the investigation IIRC.

As to the parents, they are greatly to be pitied, but there is no reason to think they are good judges of this situation.

I could say the same about people who have had bad experiences with some of these institutions...

It’s also notable that while the parents are often treated as a monolith and used as a human shield against fair public scrutiny, not all of the parents have spoken out. The lawyer representing some of the parents at Thirlwall didn’t represent all of them. As in the Lockerbie case I’d say it’s likely that not all of the families accept the official narrative.

Maybe it was a black glove…

It actually did if you hold on ONE sec I will try and find it. Doesn't say much tho, just that a doctor(?) demonstrated how this could be done.

When you say Evans was ‘just’ interviewed for Panorama, do you mean it was his ‘only’ interview?

Didn’t happen. There was no live demonstration of how a tpn bag could be tampered with in court.

I’m delighted though that you’re finally double-checking your biased sources. Good for you.

Nope. Never had a bad experience with criminal proceedings - as I’ve never been involved in criminal courts.

I also completely believed she was guilty - another Allitt. I believed bever in a million years would she have been convicted on what now appears to be a bunch of shoddy, self-congratulatory, inspector Clouseou grift.

Next.

There was actually a demonstration of the TPN bags and how liquid could be added through a port, at the trial. What's not clear from the transcript summaries is whether the bag was sealed at that point and whether it was wrapped in cellophane for the demonstration. So this one is up on the air for me: we don't know quite what the jury were shown.

There was some brief discussion of this on the Lucyletbytrials subreddit a while ago: top of this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/comments/1jwgi6c/comment/mnkauvz/

Summary from court at https://lucyletbyinnocence.com/Lucy-Letby-Case-6.html#ian-allen-pharmacy

Well then I'm not talking about you am I?

No I mean it just happened not that long ago.

No demonstration of the bags after they have been filled at pharmacy and the various tamper proof devices and heat sealed outer cover has been applied. I read this as a demonstration of yhd bags whrn they are empty and ready to be filled.

Thanks

Found it-https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-trial-defendant-one-of-only-two-nurses-on-duty-when-babies-poisoned-eight-months-apart-12896948

Letby said the nutrition bags she is accused of tampering with would have been secure - but a doctor has previously demonstrated to the trial how the tamper-proof bag could have been broken.

"Whoever did it, did it deliberately," Mr Johnson said.
"If it happened on the unit, yes," Letby replied.
"That's why it was a targeted attack, wasn't it?" Mr Johnson asked.
There was silence from Letby before she eventually replied: "Not by me it wasn't."

Cant recall anyone having an experience with the criminal courts.
You’re not talking about anyone in this thread.

I said institutions plural, if you don't think that applies to you, then great.

A doctor? Which doctor?

I'm surprised none of the tabloids either made a song and dance about the tampering demonstration nor replicated it. It would have been relatively easy to do to hammer home the "instruments" used.

But then I also don't understand why any of the mechanisms weren't demonstrated. I've seen medics on YouTube using baby mannequins etc to show how easy it is for NG tubes to be dislodged, it wouldn't be hard to get a syringe, an NG tube and a receptacle to demonstrate time it would have taken, volume of air / liquid and so forth. The defence could have done it even.

Maybe they did, but it wasn't reported on?

“The police won't speak out”

The police had no issue courting the media constantly, being interviewed everywhere, even making their own little ‘operation hummingbird’ backslapping documentary after the convictions. They only stfu after every expert in the world who commented on the case said “this is ridiculous, perhaps reconsider?” Then they suddenly got tight lipped.

“neither will the jury.”

They can’t and we know that they didn’t all
agree. What is your point?

“Evans was just interviewed for Panorama.”

Lol!! He was not “just interviewed for Panorama”. The man is more publicity hungry than a post divorce Kardashian. He’s finding it hard to shut up even after he’s been told to shut up by the CPS.

“Brearey and Jayaram can't speak out atm because of the investigation IIRC.”

Funny that, because both of them were busy showing a bit of ankle to every media outlet going until they realised that a critical eye was being turned on them. Then suddenly, like the police, they got extremely bashful. Odd. Are we meant to think that the “further investigations” only started once critical voices began speaking to the media? How strange!

Are you always this naive? Thank goodness there are other adults around to think about this stuff for you. This deeply affects your own rights as well as those of your loved ones. It isn’t just entertainment you know. Ffs.

Thanks. I would really like to know more about this, particularly whether the bag was wrapped in cellophane and how the seals could be evaded, but you are right that it's in the trial reporting.

“but a doctor has previously demonstrated to the trial how the tamper-proof bag could have been broken.”

This is not the same thing as a demonstration in court. There was no demonstration in court. There is no trial reporting that supports your claim that that there was, and there 100% would be reporting of such an event.

It didn’t happen.

O don’t believe it happened.

There was not a demonstration of how a PN bag could be tampered with after filling and sealing in the pharmacy.

It stands to reason that PN bags are tampered with-evident once filled in the pharmacy/at the manufacturer and take up to thd ward or transported for distribution elsewhere.

The bags are prepared in an aseptic environment and are prepared for hanging using aseptic procedures - it stands to reason that part of those procedures are checking to ensure the bags have not been compromised in any way either through the bags are itself of through the ports.