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Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

990 replies

MistressoftheDarkSide · 28/08/2025 21:20

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

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Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:19

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:16

You didn’t answer the question.

I believe I already said I don't know enough about that case to comment.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 31/08/2025 22:22

Nobody actually referred to the handover sheets as "trophies" during the trial, apparently. The inference was drawn by the press from the intense focus on them.

And the bin incident is unproven and unwitnessed.

A possible explanation is that she wanted to check records of medication given.

Actually, if i wasn't happy with the way things were being done, and wanted to examine possible patterns, I'd probably retain my handwritten handover notes, particularly if my dating reports were being filtered and amended by a doctor trying to paint me as a serial killer.

So why didn't she go the whole whistle-blower route with her defence?

I'll hazard a guess. Her defence advised her that taking on the NHS and pointing to bad management, poor practise or conspiracy would have made her look arrogant. As I've banged on about previously, the court room is a game. Deference to experts is part of that game. Lucy Letby s knowledge and training would be regarded as vastly inferior to that of the consultants and Evans.

It's not an impossible scenario.

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Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 22:23

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:16

I could bring ANY 100% guilty healthcare serial killer to you and you would argue the same thing-for their innocence. You do not accept anything unless someone saw them do it with their own eyes. I think someone else said it best earlier in the thread-"that's a YOU problem" and is only going to get you more irate about the justice system. Meanwhile, everyone else is satisfied that justice has been done.

Ffs don’t be so childish. No, I wouldn’t. I am also not “arguing for innocence” here, whatever that would mean. I think the case should be reviewed. This is based on the fact that the medical evidence has been completely dismantled and the expert witness totally discredited. It’s not just a flight of fancy because I love baby killers or something fgs.

The real question is how and why you’re ignoring all of the above, from a position of no expertise whatsoever, in order to cling onto your utterly dumb “omg baby killer!!!!!” lurid nonsense. It’s a serious issue that demands serious engagement, if one is to engage at all. Merely reinforcing your stance over and over again and only taking in information from sources that don’t challenge your position isn’t serious engagement. It’s rubbernecking at other people’s pain. Again, you are not the morally superior one here. Sorry.

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 22:30

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:19

I believe I already said I don't know enough about that case to comment.

You don’t know enough about this case to comment either, but it doesn’t appear to stop you.

medievalpenny · 31/08/2025 22:31

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 20:56

It's fascinating to me how some people on this thread are utterly convinced they're right and fighting this "miscarriage of justice" without any insight into the fact they could be arguing for a serial killer to be released. It's not me with the lack of insight believe me!

Right. And it surprised you that people suggested you weren't engaging in good faith?

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 22:32

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 21:46

I know, it was the idea I took all this from tabloids I was addressing. I think writing the initials for the days they were born, allegedly attacked and died is a bit of overinvolvement though. Surely you can see how if she DID attack them, this is exactly the sort of stuff they'd expect to find?

“Surely you can see how if she DID attack them, this is exactly the sort of stuff they'd expect to find?”

Maybe. But I’d expect it to be established that she did attack them first, but it hasn’t been. I’m wondering why this doesn’t matter to you at all.

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:37

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 21:50

Thanks, take the point about the tabloids.

I'd assume she noted initials for deaths, births, and children in her care when she was on duty. So we know she was on duty when Child A was born and when child A died, for example. So I wouldn't see this as sinister.

I don't see why she would note down the dates babies were born as part of a plan to kill them, no. Why would it make any difference?

I think she liked to facebook stalk the parents on what would've been their birthdays 😥

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:38

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:37

I think she liked to facebook stalk the parents on what would've been their birthdays 😥

Citation please

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:38

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 22:30

You don’t know enough about this case to comment either, but it doesn’t appear to stop you.

But I have the same opinion as the people that DO know the case.

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 22:38

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:16

I could bring ANY 100% guilty healthcare serial killer to you and you would argue the same thing-for their innocence. You do not accept anything unless someone saw them do it with their own eyes. I think someone else said it best earlier in the thread-"that's a YOU problem" and is only going to get you more irate about the justice system. Meanwhile, everyone else is satisfied that justice has been done.

Not really. If you brought me a case where all of the accusations were even possible, I'd take it more seriously. They're not.

If settled science, as the justice system describes it, supported the convictions, I'd be concerned. It doesn't.

The fact that there is no eyewitness evidence is just one observation - it's not the key problem with the case at all.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 31/08/2025 22:39

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:37

I think she liked to facebook stalk the parents on what would've been their birthdays 😥

You think, or there is evidence that proves it?

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Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 22:40

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:37

I think she liked to facebook stalk the parents on what would've been their birthdays 😥

If she had, the dates of those searches would have been produced in court. So no, that isn't the explanation.

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 22:41

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:38

But I have the same opinion as the people that DO know the case.

Who are you including here as “the people who DO know the case”? It certainly can’t be yourself. You aren’t woefully under informed.

If it’s the prosecution, the police, rubbernecking commentators like CS2C, then those sources also agreed that Lucia De Berk should not have been exonerated which would have done nothing to relieve the parents pain but would have destroyed an innocent nurse’s life even more than they already had. Again, you are not a good guy here.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 31/08/2025 22:43

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:38

But I have the same opinion as the people that DO know the case.

Not all the people who "know" the case share that opinion. A couple of jurors for a start. And the defence witness they didn't call. Lucy herself. Her family and close friends. For example.

Oh and 14 world class experts examining the medical evidence provided bono.

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Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:43

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:38

But I have the same opinion as the people that DO know the case.

Are you suggesting that there is no one who knows the case who has serious concerns on the safety of the conviction?

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:50

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:38

But I have the same opinion as the people that DO know the case.

This has to be the most ridiculous comment I’ve seen so far.

Ernst called - he wants his sharks back.

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 22:52

People still defending the conviction:

Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham (in a corrupt relationship with Cheshire Police)

Judith Moritz and Jonathan Coffey (not sure they're coherent enough to be described as defending it, but let's say, they show no signs of wanting to let it go. Three Panoramas, two editions of the book, and counting)

A handful of internet ... self-publicists, let's say.

Who else is there, who isn't directly involved in the case, who's defending it?

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:52

Insanityisnotastrategy · 31/08/2025 21:50

@Oftenaddled
How was it possible for her to commit this crime? is such a fundamental aspect of this that I know we have talked about, but it's so striking!

How did she tamper with tamper-evident, cellophane-wrapped bags? I genuinely can't see a way that is feasible.

How did she force feed the enormous quantities of milk that was cited as a method of harm? Multiple people have said this just isn't possible and makes no sense.

How did she create an air embolism in a room with two other nurses without them noticing?

Forgetting about from Dewi Evans' dodgy science for a moment, and the fact that there are other more plausible causes for the deaths, quite a few of the accusations don't even seem to be possible, let alone probable.

How did she tamper with tamper-evident, cellophane-wrapped bags? I genuinely can't see a way that is feasible.

They got someone to demonstrate it is in fact possible to tamper with these bags in court.

How did she force feed the enormous quantities of milk that was cited as a method of harm? Multiple people have said this just isn't possible and makes no sense.

It makes no sense that the baby vomited far more milk than she should ever have been given AND had milk still left in her stomach. A baby of that size should never have projectile vomited so violently.

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:57

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:52

How did she tamper with tamper-evident, cellophane-wrapped bags? I genuinely can't see a way that is feasible.

They got someone to demonstrate it is in fact possible to tamper with these bags in court.

How did she force feed the enormous quantities of milk that was cited as a method of harm? Multiple people have said this just isn't possible and makes no sense.

It makes no sense that the baby vomited far more milk than she should ever have been given AND had milk still left in her stomach. A baby of that size should never have projectile vomited so violently.

Re force feeding milk

can you explain why there was no aspiration into the lungs (on post mortem examination) nor damage to the oesophageal tract or stomach?

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:58

@Oftenaddled I was talking about the people directly involved in the case.

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 23:05

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:52

How did she tamper with tamper-evident, cellophane-wrapped bags? I genuinely can't see a way that is feasible.

They got someone to demonstrate it is in fact possible to tamper with these bags in court.

How did she force feed the enormous quantities of milk that was cited as a method of harm? Multiple people have said this just isn't possible and makes no sense.

It makes no sense that the baby vomited far more milk than she should ever have been given AND had milk still left in her stomach. A baby of that size should never have projectile vomited so violently.

The baby didn't vomit more milk than she had been given. Nobody recorded a volume - how would you do that with projectile vomit landing in a cot? Babies can and do have projectile vomit.

The idea that she had had more milk than she should have was based on the estimates of how much fluid and air were later aspirated from her stomach. While Dr Brearey argued that this was all fluid, the Dr who was present, and made the note, has confirmed that she referred to air and fluid.

The child was at the beginning of a stomach infection. The expert panel, perhaps with members with more experience of the less glamorous side of care, pointed out that the child's nappies weren't compatible with overfeeding either.

It's a nonsense accusation, and why the woman who was actually treating the child and made the medical notes should be ignored is not clear to me at all.

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 23:08

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 22:58

@Oftenaddled I was talking about the people directly involved in the case.

Not many of them have spoken out recently. Only David Evans, Stephen Brearey and some of the parents (in February). Evans and Brearey have a direct personal interest in preserving the conviction so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. As to the parents, they are greatly to be pitied, but there is no reason to think they are good judges of this situation.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 31/08/2025 23:14

Can anyone point me to an account of the tampering with the TPN bags being demonstrated in court?

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Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 23:15

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:57

Re force feeding milk

can you explain why there was no aspiration into the lungs (on post mortem examination) nor damage to the oesophageal tract or stomach?

Why would there be? Can you explain where all this excess milk came from? No!

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 23:16

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 22:57

Re force feeding milk

can you explain why there was no aspiration into the lungs (on post mortem examination) nor damage to the oesophageal tract or stomach?

Anyway what? I'm talking about baby G-she didn't die.