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Lucy Letby - have you changed your mind thread 4

990 replies

MistressoftheDarkSide · 28/08/2025 21:20

With thanks to the original poster @kittybythelighthouse and @Tidalwave for continuing the discussion.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
53
Oftenaddled · 30/08/2025 22:59

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 22:55

What? It was the day after baby D died and you're trying to say she just came out with that randomly just in general 😆the straw clutching is getting desperate guys. It's hard to argue against something LL herself said isn't it...you'll give it your best shot though. How come there's only been one death since they downgraded the unit if babies die suddenly and unexpectedly then?

We all know the unit was downgraded to level 1 and has never returned to level 2 status (never mind taking babies who should have been level 3).

See my previous answer if you want to know how this comment could indeed refer to baby D, sure, but the wider point stands - we don't always know why some live and some die, or what to expect, and that's what Lucy Letby was reflecting on.

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 23:11

Kittybythelighthouse · 30/08/2025 22:54

Are you being serious? It was a NICU. Not a daycare. That is a text message. Not specific medical detail.

Which of the babies “were not that sick” in this level 2 neonatal INTENSIVE CARE UNIT.

Be specific about exactly how they “were not that sick”.

Go on.

Child D for a start considering that was the baby LL was referring too. Also-Dr Sarah Rylance was 'happy' with Child D's clinical condition by this stage, 'stable and making good progress'.

Dr Dewi Evans said the 1.30am episode was "very surprising and unusual" as Child D had been responding to treatment and was "a stable baby". He said Child D had symptoms of early onset pneumonia and had developed that before birth, but was making a recovery. He said he could not think of any events which would end with unsuccessful resuscitation, and the cause was an air embolus.

Nurse Oakley said they were happy with Child D, and she would be provided with expressed breast milk. She said if Child D was unstable, she would not have changed Child D's nappy. Observations were 'fine' by 3.30am.

Oh and look who just so happened to be there when the designated nurse went on her break AGAIN-

Caroline Oakley said she assumed she began an infusion at 1.25am, being the designated nurse, but the writing on the infusion note was not hers.
One of the nurses on duty was aware Caroline Oakley had been on her break, and checked Child D, who was fine.
While she was at her computer, she was alerted to alarms, and found the monitor was showing Child D was desaturating at 1.30am. She recalled Letby was there.

Also of some interest-

Child D's mother recalled an event when she arrived on the unit and Letby was 'hovering round [Child D], not doing much, holding a clipboard', and she asked if everything was ok. Letby replied everything was "fine".
The mother added: "She just stuck around".
The mother said Letby was told to go away, or words to that effect.

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23631372.recap-lucy-letby-trial-july-4---judges-summing/

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, July 4 - judge's summing up

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23631372.recap-lucy-letby-trial-july-4---judges-summing/

Oftenaddled · 30/08/2025 23:21

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 23:11

Child D for a start considering that was the baby LL was referring too. Also-Dr Sarah Rylance was 'happy' with Child D's clinical condition by this stage, 'stable and making good progress'.

Dr Dewi Evans said the 1.30am episode was "very surprising and unusual" as Child D had been responding to treatment and was "a stable baby". He said Child D had symptoms of early onset pneumonia and had developed that before birth, but was making a recovery. He said he could not think of any events which would end with unsuccessful resuscitation, and the cause was an air embolus.

Nurse Oakley said they were happy with Child D, and she would be provided with expressed breast milk. She said if Child D was unstable, she would not have changed Child D's nappy. Observations were 'fine' by 3.30am.

Oh and look who just so happened to be there when the designated nurse went on her break AGAIN-

Caroline Oakley said she assumed she began an infusion at 1.25am, being the designated nurse, but the writing on the infusion note was not hers.
One of the nurses on duty was aware Caroline Oakley had been on her break, and checked Child D, who was fine.
While she was at her computer, she was alerted to alarms, and found the monitor was showing Child D was desaturating at 1.30am. She recalled Letby was there.

Also of some interest-

Child D's mother recalled an event when she arrived on the unit and Letby was 'hovering round [Child D], not doing much, holding a clipboard', and she asked if everything was ok. Letby replied everything was "fine".
The mother added: "She just stuck around".
The mother said Letby was told to go away, or words to that effect.

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23631372.recap-lucy-letby-trial-july-4---judges-summing/

But the fact that a doctor was happy with her progress doesn't mean that she was not that sick and only needed a little help. That's not what those words mean.

Kittybythelighthouse · 30/08/2025 23:24

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 22:31

I can see you’ve never failed an exam in your entire life. You must be extraordinarily successful, maybe even a genius? Impressive!

It's not just "failing an exam" it's that the assessor felt that Letby did not have the "overall characteristics" to become a successful nurse. That's quite a big thing to fail someone on. You're purposely minimising it.

Obviously you’ve also never once in your entire existence done anything that upset anybody else, ever. Nobody has ever not quite gelled with you. Do you give lessons in charm and deportment? You really should.

Of course, but we're talking about things wildly outside the norm. Like it or not the prosecution looks at the behaviour of suspected serial killers. This isn't going to stop just because you personally don't care about any of this or think it's all irrelevant. You'll just get more and more mad at perceived miscarriages of justice because you refuse to look at this entire part of the evidence. Either through lack of interest or not actually understanding the weight of it.

Even though you are a self proclaimed true crime fan there is nothing in your search history, or your bookshelves, or your text message history that reflects this morbid curiosity? Are you absolutely sure? Your Tattle history only reflects an interest in cupcakes and doilies does it?

It's a passing interest in true crime and mysteries. The LL case is currently widely being talked about by lots of people. I actually don't know too much about many other cases. I can guarantee there's nothing else. I certainly haven't written crazy things on post-it notes or hoarded confidential documents. So at a push that's ONE red flag (if the police would even be the least bothered about an interest in true crime) Lucy was nothing but red flags. And this would have to be after I'd been in the vicinity of multiple deaths happening over and over. I don't see ever being in that situation somehow.

  1. She kept track of her shifts in a diary which was completely uncontroversial except for the fact that Cheshire police stupidly thought that they’d found a secret code, like Poirot, but it was in fact just ordinary nursing shorthand. Embarrassing.

I thought she had also written the initials of the babies that she had attacked on those dates?

Am I missing anything? She called a tracksuit pyjamas? She said she didn’t know what “go commando” meant in a text that someone else sent? She rejected offers of cosy lifts home from a doctor she supposedly was bunny boiling for? She won money on the grand national the same day a baby died in the literal intensive care unit she worked at?

I assume the prosecution brought that up to show she lies and plays the victim for sympathy. She's good at that. Funny you should mention the doctor-in any other scenario on here she'd probably be branded "evil" just for sniffing around a married man alone. But be a suspected serial killer and people want to die on the hill of defending you?!

Lucia De Berk started keeping her handover sheets once she felt she was under suspicion. They actually helped in her eventual exoneration. Lucia De Berk also wrote “incriminating” things in personal notes, more so than Lucy Letby. She still didn’t kill any babies though. She died yesterday btw, aged only 63. I’m sure the vicious hounding, the dehumanisation, and the injustice of a wrongful imprisonment as The Netherlands’ most hated woman didn’t help.

Let's leave her out of it since she just died.

Ffs Firefly. I think you are probably a really decent person outside of all this but you are being such a weird, judgemental, pearl clutcher about stuff that I know you would not find “wildly outside the norm” in anyone who wasn’t accused of murdering babies.

You just wouldn’t. Nobody would!

You are being absolutely ridiculous here and one day you will see that.

“It's a passing interest in true crime and mysteries. The LL case is currently widely being talked about by lots of people. I actually don't know too much about many other cases. I can guarantee there's nothing else. I certainly haven't written crazy things on post-it notes or hoarded confidential documents. So at a push that's ONE red flag (if the police would even be the least bothered about an interest in true crime)”

I note that you’re already desperately scrambling to “minimise” your own interest in macabre topics, lest they be seen as “red flags”, and the police aren’t even knocking at your door. Interesting.

The Grand National is not weirder than true crime btw.

“I thought she had also written the initials of the babies that she had attacked on those dates?”

FFS. No. She didn’t. You’re the only person who apparently still believes that early tabloid claim which was debunked literal years ago. For gods sake. It was NURSING SHORTHAND. That’s the point! It’s not even the first time we’ve spoken about this specific thing. Jesus.

“I assume the prosecution brought that up to show she lies and plays the victim for sympathy. She's good at that.”

Ridiculous. I’m wearing tracksuit bottoms and a sports bra right now. I’m in bed. I’ll be sleeping in these. Therefore this is pyjamas. Everything I wear to sleep in is pyjamas. What kind of correct salad fork etiquette are you spouting here? Because I am willing to bet you don’t live by it.

“Funny you should mention the doctor-in any other scenario on here she'd probably be branded "evil" just for sniffing around a married man alone.”

Excuse me?! What Puritan pearl clutchers in the year 2025 would brand someone “evil” for maybe, or maybe not, having an affair? Do you have this same energy for a married man sniffing around a woman young enough to be his daughter? His messages were quite unctuous. Hers, quite cold. She turned down his offers of lifts home. Who was sniffing around who?

“But be a suspected serial killer and people want to die on the hill of defending you?!”

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

OP posts:
Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 23:32

Oftenaddled · 30/08/2025 23:21

But the fact that a doctor was happy with her progress doesn't mean that she was not that sick and only needed a little help. That's not what those words mean.

If Lucy herself is remarking on the sick babies getting through and others dying suddenly and unexpectedly then there must be a VAST difference in the wellness of these babies. That's the point.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 30/08/2025 23:35

MistressoftheDarkSide · 30/08/2025 23:27

Quoting myself for the benefit of @Firefly1987 .

Read this and see if it helps.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 30/08/2025 23:43

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 23:32

If Lucy herself is remarking on the sick babies getting through and others dying suddenly and unexpectedly then there must be a VAST difference in the wellness of these babies. That's the point.

Why? She's not a pathologist?

Nobody on the unit expected Child D to die. But she was unwell. How unwell? Improving, they believed, but in intensive care and ill enough that her mother was told she couldn't hold her yet - only if she went on improving.

So the child died, unexpectedly. Nobody disputes that. Consultants, nurses, Lucy Letby, Dewi Evans, Shoo Lee etc etc. Why is it suspicious that Lucy Letby too found it unexpected?

What do we do when a death is unexpected and we need an explanation? A post-mortem. The child had a post-mortem, and Dr McPartland noted lesions on the lung which would explain why the pneumonia didn't improve as expected. She also commented that, in her role, she would sometimes see a fluctuating course, not a linear deterioration.

Meanwhile, Lucy Letby was in the same room as baby D most of the night when she died because she was caring for two other children there.

Neither her text message nor her presence in the room are remotely suspicious. And her text message does not in any way support the argument that baby D wasn't ill and just needed a little extra help.

Kittybythelighthouse · 30/08/2025 23:56

“Lucia De Berk started keeping her handover sheets once she felt she was under suspicion. They actually helped in her eventual exoneration. Lucia De Berk also wrote “incriminating” things in personal notes, more so than Lucy Letby. She still didn’t kill any babies though. She died yesterday btw, aged only 63. I’m sure the vicious hounding, the dehumanisation, and the injustice of a wrongful imprisonment as The Netherlands’ most hated woman didn’t help.”

@Firefly1987 you said “Let's leave her out of it since she just died.”

Lucia De Berk is extremely relevant here. Several of the people who fought to exonerate her are also worried about the Lucy Letby case, because the pattern is almost identical.

I’m sure that it is inconvenient to you to be faced with the end result of the type of witch hunt you are currently enjoying, but that is just too bad. I’m not going to avoid reminding you that taking pleasure from destroying people who may very well be innocent is the worst sort of destructive human behaviour. If you don’t like the comparison perhaps you should reflect on that, because that’s on you.

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 00:01

I note that you’re already desperately scrambling to “minimise” your own interest in macabre topics, lest they be seen as “red flags”, and the police aren’t even knocking at your door. Interesting.

@Kittybythelighthouse Lol. There's a big difference between having an interest from far away and creeping around the victims in real life. I'm interested in the mindset of someone like Lucy and why she did it. I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes, it's more the psychology of it. Think I've said that before.

The Grand National is not weirder than true crime btw.

It is when you just talked about your "shit day" at work just before. It's callous when a baby had almost died. Bit more than a shit day. I don't put too much stock in that though, there are far more incriminating things.

FFS. No. She didn’t. You’re the only person who apparently still believes that early tabloid claim which was debunked literal years ago. For gods sake. It was NURSING SHORTHAND. That’s the point! It’s not even the first time we’ve spoken about this specific thing. Jesus.

It's a report from the actual trial. I'm not talking about "LD" or whatever it was, I mean the actual babies initials. Bit of a coincidence if the initials of the babies just so happen to be the same as nursing shorthand on the same date they were attacked or died. But we're used to crazy coincidences by now aren't we?

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, also showed pictures of Letby’s 2016 diary in which she had written the initials of some of her alleged victims on significant dates.
Astbury told jurors the babies’ initials were recorded on dates such as the day they were born, the days they were allegedly attacked, and the day they died.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/17/lucy-letby-initials-of-babies-on-dates-of-alleged-attacks-noted-in-diary-court-told

Ridiculous. I’m wearing tracksuit bottoms and a sports bra right now. I’m in bed. I’ll be sleeping in these. Therefore this is pyjamas. Everything I wear to sleep in is pyjamas. What kind of correct salad fork etiquette are you spouting here? Because I am willing to bet you don’t live by it.

I don't really care about the PJs. I just said that's why the prosecution probably brought it up. I also don't care what you consider to be PJs 😆although I don't recall Lucy saying her tracksuit was PJs, especially since she claimed to be wearing a nightie...maybe a Lee Cooper tracksuit is a nightie in her mind.

Excuse me?! What Puritan pearl clutchers in the year 2025 would brand someone “evil” for maybe, or maybe not, having an affair? Do you have this same energy for a married man sniffing around a woman young enough to be his daughter? His messages were quite unctuous. Hers, quite cold. She turned down his offers of lifts home. Who was sniffing around who?

You're obviously not familiar with mumsnet AIBU. I don't care about that aspect, most women on here would though. There was an affair thread on here just the other day-should be easy enough for you to find. Posters didn't hold back lets just say...and a thread where a single mum dared to wonder if a dad doing school drop offs could be single....I think she was even called "predatory" at one point!

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

Only because you are blind to her do you think Lucy is "just like everyone else".

Lucy Letby: initials of babies noted in diary on dates of alleged attacks, court told

Note saying ‘I don’t know if I killed them. Maybe I did’ also seen in Manchester trial of nurse accused of murdering seven babies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/17/lucy-letby-initials-of-babies-on-dates-of-alleged-attacks-noted-in-diary-court-told

Oftenaddled · 31/08/2025 00:07

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 00:01

I note that you’re already desperately scrambling to “minimise” your own interest in macabre topics, lest they be seen as “red flags”, and the police aren’t even knocking at your door. Interesting.

@Kittybythelighthouse Lol. There's a big difference between having an interest from far away and creeping around the victims in real life. I'm interested in the mindset of someone like Lucy and why she did it. I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes, it's more the psychology of it. Think I've said that before.

The Grand National is not weirder than true crime btw.

It is when you just talked about your "shit day" at work just before. It's callous when a baby had almost died. Bit more than a shit day. I don't put too much stock in that though, there are far more incriminating things.

FFS. No. She didn’t. You’re the only person who apparently still believes that early tabloid claim which was debunked literal years ago. For gods sake. It was NURSING SHORTHAND. That’s the point! It’s not even the first time we’ve spoken about this specific thing. Jesus.

It's a report from the actual trial. I'm not talking about "LD" or whatever it was, I mean the actual babies initials. Bit of a coincidence if the initials of the babies just so happen to be the same as nursing shorthand on the same date they were attacked or died. But we're used to crazy coincidences by now aren't we?

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, also showed pictures of Letby’s 2016 diary in which she had written the initials of some of her alleged victims on significant dates.
Astbury told jurors the babies’ initials were recorded on dates such as the day they were born, the days they were allegedly attacked, and the day they died.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/17/lucy-letby-initials-of-babies-on-dates-of-alleged-attacks-noted-in-diary-court-told

Ridiculous. I’m wearing tracksuit bottoms and a sports bra right now. I’m in bed. I’ll be sleeping in these. Therefore this is pyjamas. Everything I wear to sleep in is pyjamas. What kind of correct salad fork etiquette are you spouting here? Because I am willing to bet you don’t live by it.

I don't really care about the PJs. I just said that's why the prosecution probably brought it up. I also don't care what you consider to be PJs 😆although I don't recall Lucy saying her tracksuit was PJs, especially since she claimed to be wearing a nightie...maybe a Lee Cooper tracksuit is a nightie in her mind.

Excuse me?! What Puritan pearl clutchers in the year 2025 would brand someone “evil” for maybe, or maybe not, having an affair? Do you have this same energy for a married man sniffing around a woman young enough to be his daughter? His messages were quite unctuous. Hers, quite cold. She turned down his offers of lifts home. Who was sniffing around who?

You're obviously not familiar with mumsnet AIBU. I don't care about that aspect, most women on here would though. There was an affair thread on here just the other day-should be easy enough for you to find. Posters didn't hold back lets just say...and a thread where a single mum dared to wonder if a dad doing school drop offs could be single....I think she was even called "predatory" at one point!

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

Only because you are blind to her do you think Lucy is "just like everyone else".

Nurses have explained here that they often note what child they were responsible for against their diary entries for the shifts they worked, so that they can easily check and show the record of care against the shifts they are paid for. So nothing suspicious there.

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 00:43

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 00:01

I note that you’re already desperately scrambling to “minimise” your own interest in macabre topics, lest they be seen as “red flags”, and the police aren’t even knocking at your door. Interesting.

@Kittybythelighthouse Lol. There's a big difference between having an interest from far away and creeping around the victims in real life. I'm interested in the mindset of someone like Lucy and why she did it. I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes, it's more the psychology of it. Think I've said that before.

The Grand National is not weirder than true crime btw.

It is when you just talked about your "shit day" at work just before. It's callous when a baby had almost died. Bit more than a shit day. I don't put too much stock in that though, there are far more incriminating things.

FFS. No. She didn’t. You’re the only person who apparently still believes that early tabloid claim which was debunked literal years ago. For gods sake. It was NURSING SHORTHAND. That’s the point! It’s not even the first time we’ve spoken about this specific thing. Jesus.

It's a report from the actual trial. I'm not talking about "LD" or whatever it was, I mean the actual babies initials. Bit of a coincidence if the initials of the babies just so happen to be the same as nursing shorthand on the same date they were attacked or died. But we're used to crazy coincidences by now aren't we?

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, also showed pictures of Letby’s 2016 diary in which she had written the initials of some of her alleged victims on significant dates.
Astbury told jurors the babies’ initials were recorded on dates such as the day they were born, the days they were allegedly attacked, and the day they died.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/17/lucy-letby-initials-of-babies-on-dates-of-alleged-attacks-noted-in-diary-court-told

Ridiculous. I’m wearing tracksuit bottoms and a sports bra right now. I’m in bed. I’ll be sleeping in these. Therefore this is pyjamas. Everything I wear to sleep in is pyjamas. What kind of correct salad fork etiquette are you spouting here? Because I am willing to bet you don’t live by it.

I don't really care about the PJs. I just said that's why the prosecution probably brought it up. I also don't care what you consider to be PJs 😆although I don't recall Lucy saying her tracksuit was PJs, especially since she claimed to be wearing a nightie...maybe a Lee Cooper tracksuit is a nightie in her mind.

Excuse me?! What Puritan pearl clutchers in the year 2025 would brand someone “evil” for maybe, or maybe not, having an affair? Do you have this same energy for a married man sniffing around a woman young enough to be his daughter? His messages were quite unctuous. Hers, quite cold. She turned down his offers of lifts home. Who was sniffing around who?

You're obviously not familiar with mumsnet AIBU. I don't care about that aspect, most women on here would though. There was an affair thread on here just the other day-should be easy enough for you to find. Posters didn't hold back lets just say...and a thread where a single mum dared to wonder if a dad doing school drop offs could be single....I think she was even called "predatory" at one point!

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

Only because you are blind to her do you think Lucy is "just like everyone else".

“Lol. There's a big difference between having an interest from far away and creeping around the victims in real life. I'm interested in the mindset of someone like Lucy and why she did it. I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes, it's more the psychology of it. Think I've said that before.”

You’re being so silly here. You are judging someone else for the banal minutiae of their life, imagining yourself as some mindhunter profiling genius while you are apparently unable to do the basic work of putting yourself in the situation and examining whether or not your behaviour would be construed as creepy. It damn well would be by your measure. In these threads alone you’ve exhibited far more salacious interest in murder than Letby ever did in all of the extensive digging that was done on her entire life and search histories.

“It's a report from the actual trial. I'm not talking about "LD" or whatever it was, I mean the actual babies initials”

The actual babies initials were not in her diary Firefly. It was literally just nursing shorthand and you’ve been reading too many tabloids and/or too many tattle threads.

“I don't really care about the PJs. I just said that's why the prosecution probably brought it up.”

Yes, because the prosecution will do literally anything to make a defendant look suss. Nick Johnson would string you up as a murderer tomorrow, before breakfast, no problem. Would it make you a murderer? No. But you continue to appear totally unable to understand that prosecution allegations are not facts.

“I also don't care what you consider to be PJs”

Why not? Is it evidence of compulsive lying to call something not sold as pyjamas “pyjamas” or not? Pick one!

“I don't recall Lucy saying her tracksuit was PJs”

Probably because you only take in tabloid stories and whatever Liz hull regurgitates. She didn’t claim to be “wearing a nightie”. From the transcripts this is exactly what she said:

LL: They told me that I was being arrested for multiple counts of murder and attempted murder, and then they quickly handcuffed me and took me away.

BM: All right. And you were taken to a police station, is that right?

LL: In my pyjamas, yes.

This is evidence of compulsive lying? Describing a tracksuit you’re wearing when asleep at 6am and the police come knocking as “pyjamas”? Arrest me now then. Ffs.

By the way, I don’t think a young woman being pursued, as she clearly was judging by the doctor’s own texts, is “evil”. No one with any sense and empathy would. If anything he is “evil”. Why is he, the married father chasing a junior employee young enough to be his daughter, escaping your judgement here? If you don’t care about it why did you present it as evidence of a malevolent nature?

“Only because you are blind to her do you think Lucy is "just like everyone else"

That isn’t what I said. This is what I said:

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

I don’t think anybody is “just like everyone else” do you expect that they should be?

I’m still waiting for you to show any evidence of this superior ability to understand human nature that you claim to have btw. It appears to be severely lacking thus far.

Kittybythelighthouse · 31/08/2025 00:56

“On another forum someone has transcribed the channel 5 documentary on Lucy Letby and there's an interesting section about Waney Squiers, the experts who challenged SBS, that illustrates the difficulty for the defence to get expert witnesses willing to fight a defendants corner. It's worth a look.”

I’ve seen that doc @MistressoftheDarkSide
I also recommend The Lab Detective - a podcast about bad statistics being used to wrongly convict mothers of Munchausens By Proxy. So many lives and families were destroyed for the egos of clueless “expert witnesses”. Interestingly there are connections to the Letby case, where multiple of the doctors involved actually signed letters to in support of the responsible expert witness (Roy Meadow) when he was being struck off after Sally Clark’s release. She died young too, just like Lucia De Berk.

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 07:47

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 23:32

If Lucy herself is remarking on the sick babies getting through and others dying suddenly and unexpectedly then there must be a VAST difference in the wellness of these babies. That's the point.

A vast difference in the apparent stability of the babies. Babies in NICU are all sick, by definition. Some of them are stable (i.e. their condition does not appear to be getting worse), some of them are improving, and some are unstable or deteriorating.

Once again, human beings aren’t cars. There are infinite ways in which they can go wrong spontaneously. It’s impossible to be certain which way any individual is going to go.

Anyone who has ever cared for patients will tell you that sometimes someone looks as though they won’t make it through the night, but the next morning are eating breakfast and chatting. Conversely, someone who looked pretty good and was improving one day just suddenly dies the next.

But I don’t think you want to understand this because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 07:56

Firefly1987 · 31/08/2025 00:01

I note that you’re already desperately scrambling to “minimise” your own interest in macabre topics, lest they be seen as “red flags”, and the police aren’t even knocking at your door. Interesting.

@Kittybythelighthouse Lol. There's a big difference between having an interest from far away and creeping around the victims in real life. I'm interested in the mindset of someone like Lucy and why she did it. I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes, it's more the psychology of it. Think I've said that before.

The Grand National is not weirder than true crime btw.

It is when you just talked about your "shit day" at work just before. It's callous when a baby had almost died. Bit more than a shit day. I don't put too much stock in that though, there are far more incriminating things.

FFS. No. She didn’t. You’re the only person who apparently still believes that early tabloid claim which was debunked literal years ago. For gods sake. It was NURSING SHORTHAND. That’s the point! It’s not even the first time we’ve spoken about this specific thing. Jesus.

It's a report from the actual trial. I'm not talking about "LD" or whatever it was, I mean the actual babies initials. Bit of a coincidence if the initials of the babies just so happen to be the same as nursing shorthand on the same date they were attacked or died. But we're used to crazy coincidences by now aren't we?

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, also showed pictures of Letby’s 2016 diary in which she had written the initials of some of her alleged victims on significant dates.
Astbury told jurors the babies’ initials were recorded on dates such as the day they were born, the days they were allegedly attacked, and the day they died.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/17/lucy-letby-initials-of-babies-on-dates-of-alleged-attacks-noted-in-diary-court-told

Ridiculous. I’m wearing tracksuit bottoms and a sports bra right now. I’m in bed. I’ll be sleeping in these. Therefore this is pyjamas. Everything I wear to sleep in is pyjamas. What kind of correct salad fork etiquette are you spouting here? Because I am willing to bet you don’t live by it.

I don't really care about the PJs. I just said that's why the prosecution probably brought it up. I also don't care what you consider to be PJs 😆although I don't recall Lucy saying her tracksuit was PJs, especially since she claimed to be wearing a nightie...maybe a Lee Cooper tracksuit is a nightie in her mind.

Excuse me?! What Puritan pearl clutchers in the year 2025 would brand someone “evil” for maybe, or maybe not, having an affair? Do you have this same energy for a married man sniffing around a woman young enough to be his daughter? His messages were quite unctuous. Hers, quite cold. She turned down his offers of lifts home. Who was sniffing around who?

You're obviously not familiar with mumsnet AIBU. I don't care about that aspect, most women on here would though. There was an affair thread on here just the other day-should be easy enough for you to find. Posters didn't hold back lets just say...and a thread where a single mum dared to wonder if a dad doing school drop offs could be single....I think she was even called "predatory" at one point!

For someone who thinks she is a brilliant student of human behaviour you’re only ever showing again and again that you’re extremely bad at exactly that. Humans are complex and messy. It doesn’t make us all serial killers. If anything Lucy Letby was a lot cleaner than most of us, you included if you were completely honest and examined your own behaviour through this same puritan lens.

Only because you are blind to her do you think Lucy is "just like everyone else".

I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes

Evidently. You deliberately remain ignorant even of the undisputed facts, and remain wedded to whatever fantasies your tabloid hacks dream up.

it's more the psychology of it.

I’m beginning to be quite interested in the psychology of wilful ignorance…

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:13

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 07:56

I try to read as little as possible about the actual crimes

Evidently. You deliberately remain ignorant even of the undisputed facts, and remain wedded to whatever fantasies your tabloid hacks dream up.

it's more the psychology of it.

I’m beginning to be quite interested in the psychology of wilful ignorance…

You’ll find lots with similar at witch trials (historically speaking)

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:20

Firefly1987 · 30/08/2025 22:43

I can't be specific. I was actually going by Lucy's own text messages.

June 22 2015, the day after the death of Baby D, Letby once again reached out to her colleagues.
She said: On a day to day basis it's an incredible job with so many positives. But sometimes I think, how do such sick babies get through & others just die so suddenly and unexpectedly? Guess it's how it's meant to be... I think there is an element of fate involved. There is a reason for everything.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/revealed-disturbing-text-messages-sent-by-killer-nurse-lucy-letby-during-murder-spree-4310597

So there's your theory that they were all at deaths door gone out the window.

Why can’t you be specific?

You followed the case right from day one - why cant you tell us the conditions the babies were born eith and yhd conditions they developed?

You frequently refer to people who dudng follow the trial as being hypocritical for thinking they know it all. And yet you never ever are abod to answer questions.

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:31

MistressoftheDarkSide · 30/08/2025 22:01

When my child was returned to me after 18 months, it was with a conditional regime that included a stipulation that I continue to work part-time, that we attended first a mother and baby group, then hr went to a nursery - both of which lnew "the history" and reported back weekly every detail of attendance. Other days he was cared for by my DF and myself SF. His father kind of had to supervise me at home. There were extra HV checks as well. It was a further 18 months before we came off the "At Risk" register.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that despite and because of this regime my paranoia was off the scale, and I dreaded being left alone with him. I didn't get any support with that, everything was geared up to waiting for me to fail in some way. As a result, my DC did not have a normal or relaxed childhood, and the SW implied that giving him up for adoption would have been the moral choice even if I was innocent.

Even now, 31 years later, I would not want to be left alone with anyone else's child. I once babysat for a toddler, and my by then new DH had to come with me. The parents trusted me, but if anything had happened at all, it would have been doubly awful as not only would I feel natural guilt at the event itself, but also I would fall under suspicion.

My son has yet to reproduce. If he did, I could never do the normal childcare a grandparent would do, even though he knows the full story and trusts me implicitly. I couldn't take the risk.

In addition if he does have a child there's a strong possibility that because he is on record as an abused child, he and his partner would come under LA scrutiny.

The ramifications and stress associated with a false accusation of this nature break people, break up families, and it's obviously multiplied a thousand times over for people like Lucia, Lucy, Sally Clarke. I have no doubt that Lucias early demise was contributed to by her experience.

The cavalier attitude of some to such grievious failures demonstrated in cases like these is frankly appalling, and it demands reform across all the agencies.

I'm still chilled to the bone that Lucia suffered a stroke and was left to suffer by prison guards.

It's so easy to stand in judgement....until it's you having the finger pointed at you.

I’m so sorry.

I hear you. And I experienced similar except one of my children I didn’t see for over 6 years.

The LA who did it to us (who investigated in reverse starting with ‘I must be guilty because two men say so’ and subsequently ignoring any evidence that said yhe contrary, and only willing to speak on the phone to health professionals who were shouting from the rooftops that there was a problem here and it wasn’t me so that they could then twist or make up what was said by those professionals to the extent that one of them threatened the LA with legal and regulatory action) was forced to apologise at a level three complaints panel (who wiped the floor with them), pay compensation and write letters to my children.

I should have carried on through statutory and regulatory channels - but I was all bud dead at that point.

To this day, the second I think someone thinks I’ve done something wrong in any setting, I want to vomit. I don’t trust anyone, nor any professional. If I gave to take my younger let to the GP I’m terrified I’m going to say something that could be misconstrued. I’m terrified in school meeting but I’m the only parent who attends as father deems it my job and my responsibility, now.

I lost most of my friends because they believed the abusive men whispering in the LA’s ears: Ive not bothered making more Because I no longer trust people.

People want to point the finger bevause it’s easy for them, and bolsters their cozy little Just World bubble: it could NEVER happen to them bevause they are a good and decent person.

rubbishatballet · 31/08/2025 08:34

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 07:47

A vast difference in the apparent stability of the babies. Babies in NICU are all sick, by definition. Some of them are stable (i.e. their condition does not appear to be getting worse), some of them are improving, and some are unstable or deteriorating.

Once again, human beings aren’t cars. There are infinite ways in which they can go wrong spontaneously. It’s impossible to be certain which way any individual is going to go.

Anyone who has ever cared for patients will tell you that sometimes someone looks as though they won’t make it through the night, but the next morning are eating breakfast and chatting. Conversely, someone who looked pretty good and was improving one day just suddenly dies the next.

But I don’t think you want to understand this because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

I don’t think the unit was ever a NICU? Although I accept they did have some quite poorly babies there.

To my knowledge there was also no separate step down facility (like a SCBU) at the CoCH. So presumably it would be fair to say that as they would have babies on the unit until the day they went home, at any given time not every baby on the unit will have been very poorly and some will have been very stable and well (with zero expectation of sudden deterioration) in the period preceding their discharge?

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:50

rubbishatballet · 31/08/2025 08:34

I don’t think the unit was ever a NICU? Although I accept they did have some quite poorly babies there.

To my knowledge there was also no separate step down facility (like a SCBU) at the CoCH. So presumably it would be fair to say that as they would have babies on the unit until the day they went home, at any given time not every baby on the unit will have been very poorly and some will have been very stable and well (with zero expectation of sudden deterioration) in the period preceding their discharge?

Some of the babies should have been at a level 3 (which is an NICU) and weren’t. But no one can say that a level 2 NNU doesn't not have sick babies. They do and they need more than a ‘little bit’ of help in many cases. CPAP isn’t a ‘little bit of help’, needing constant monitoring isn’t a ‘little bit of help’.
Going from breathing on their own to needing CPAP within a few hours isn’t needing a ‘little bit of help’ - it’s a serious sign of deterioration due to any number of issues (sepsis, infection, heart issues, lack of surfactant, circulatory issues, bowel issues….)

rubbishatballet · 31/08/2025 09:01

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:50

Some of the babies should have been at a level 3 (which is an NICU) and weren’t. But no one can say that a level 2 NNU doesn't not have sick babies. They do and they need more than a ‘little bit’ of help in many cases. CPAP isn’t a ‘little bit of help’, needing constant monitoring isn’t a ‘little bit of help’.
Going from breathing on their own to needing CPAP within a few hours isn’t needing a ‘little bit of help’ - it’s a serious sign of deterioration due to any number of issues (sepsis, infection, heart issues, lack of surfactant, circulatory issues, bowel issues….)

Edited

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but what I’ve said also still stands.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 31/08/2025 09:05

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 08:31

I’m so sorry.

I hear you. And I experienced similar except one of my children I didn’t see for over 6 years.

The LA who did it to us (who investigated in reverse starting with ‘I must be guilty because two men say so’ and subsequently ignoring any evidence that said yhe contrary, and only willing to speak on the phone to health professionals who were shouting from the rooftops that there was a problem here and it wasn’t me so that they could then twist or make up what was said by those professionals to the extent that one of them threatened the LA with legal and regulatory action) was forced to apologise at a level three complaints panel (who wiped the floor with them), pay compensation and write letters to my children.

I should have carried on through statutory and regulatory channels - but I was all bud dead at that point.

To this day, the second I think someone thinks I’ve done something wrong in any setting, I want to vomit. I don’t trust anyone, nor any professional. If I gave to take my younger let to the GP I’m terrified I’m going to say something that could be misconstrued. I’m terrified in school meeting but I’m the only parent who attends as father deems it my job and my responsibility, now.

I lost most of my friends because they believed the abusive men whispering in the LA’s ears: Ive not bothered making more Because I no longer trust people.

People want to point the finger bevause it’s easy for them, and bolsters their cozy little Just World bubble: it could NEVER happen to them bevause they are a good and decent person.

Edited

Ah, got tears in my eyes reading your story, it resonates so much, especially where you say "I was all but dead at that point". The blame comes from every direction from those on the outside.

It must be our fault that we're in the authorities cross hairs, there's no smoke without fire etc. It's our fault if we fight back and they double down. It's our fault if we stop fighting back. It's our fault if we end up with CPTSD because it was "just bad luck". Where is our resilience and all that?

Most people just don't get it, unless they've been there, or have actually taken the time to listen, research and can fully see the fallout through a truly empathetic lens.

We live in a twilight world, half in and half out, playing the game, wearing the mask, toeing the line, reminding ourselves that fear is the mind killer, while our minds exist in a constant state of self administered resuscitation, because we have to go on.

The loss of trust, the loss of friends, jobs, and joy are seen as acceptable collateral damage by the "child protection" hawks, who end up doing more damage to the children long term when they are bull dozing the way through our lives.

It's living with the constant feeling of unfinished business with no hope of closure.

So please accept a huge, huge hug.

I know there's not much we can do except say "I see you, I hear you, and my heart aches for us"

Respect and solidarity.

OP posts:
Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 09:08

rubbishatballet · 31/08/2025 09:01

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but what I’ve said also still stands.

It does still stand.

But this doesn’t mean that the babies connected to this awful circus were well, many were not.

On fact Dewi Evans himself said this of Baby C in his first round of reports:

’One may never know the cause of (death) of Baby C, but he was at great risk of collapse.’ 1st report to Cheshire Police, paragraph 33.

at great risk of collapse

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 09:10

rubbishatballet · 31/08/2025 09:01

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but what I’ve said also still stands.

Yeah, and so does mine. You nitpick about whether the unit was a designated NICU (it wasn’t) despite it handling NICU babies, and ignore what I was actually saying.

If you really are in the legal profession, all you’re doing here is showcasing the worryingly poor critical thinking skills that I fear characterises those in positions of power over us.

Typicalwave · 31/08/2025 09:19

EyeLevelStick · 31/08/2025 09:10

Yeah, and so does mine. You nitpick about whether the unit was a designated NICU (it wasn’t) despite it handling NICU babies, and ignore what I was actually saying.

If you really are in the legal profession, all you’re doing here is showcasing the worryingly poor critical thinking skills that I fear characterises those in positions of power over us.

Yes.

Many belonged in a NICU and weren’t due to unexpected maternal/foetal decline or overcrowding at tertiary centres.

NICU babies, on a level 2 NNU that had sewage, supply, staffing, lack of adequate expertise, lack of oversight of Jr Drs by consultants as features.

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