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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3

983 replies

Typicalwave · 19/08/2025 18:43

New thread for those following or wishing to comment - originally started by @kittybythelighthouse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
40
Kittybythelighthouse · 19/08/2025 23:28

Firefly1987 · 19/08/2025 23:22

OK good just checking lol. It was more she wasn't happy about the idea but again just going from memory there until I can find it. I'm sure her reaction is probably all open to interpretation anyway. It was an interesting point I thought though-that CCTV WAS actually considered at one point.

I don’t consider that as CCTV being considered by COCH. It was a throw away comment in an attempt to gain leverage in the doctors talks with management, but let’s not split hairs on it 🙂

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

Kittybythelighthouse · 19/08/2025 23:30

3678194b · 19/08/2025 23:22

I've changed my mind yes.

At first I thought she was innocent. Now I know she's guilty.

An evil serial killer. Murderer. I have sympathies for the families of those murdered. I can't believe the lack of compassion for the parents by some, trying to justify it by saying 'the parents would rather know the truth'. Well they know the truth.

I’d love to know what changed your mind if you are willing to share?

Typicalwave · 19/08/2025 23:35

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

Experts aside - do you think it’s acceptable for our CPS to use evidence from a laboratory that categorically stated it’s assay tests were not to be used in investigations and if a hospital suspected some sort of overdosing of exogenous insulin that further testing beyond thei assay Yest needed to be done?

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 19/08/2025 23:43

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

Thanks for this. I can see you have a strong opinion, but I am glad you shared it. Just in regards to your point (no need to feel you have to reply btw):

Even if you discount:

  1. the fact that the insulin test is not considered to be accurate enough for firing someone, let alone attempted murder convictions, and the lab itself states in red on its guidelines that this type of test cannot be used forensically.
  2. The fact that the lab’s own quality control tests returned an even higher result shortly afterwards, which was deemed to be a testing error.
  3. The fact that both babies lived despite astronomically high readings that would have killed an adult.
  4. Experts who have presented alternative explanations for the insulin results.

Letby wasn’t even there for the insulin cases, which is why the prosecution had to invent elaborate poisoning in absentia methods for those cases. If the other cases don’t stand then the insulin cases don’t either, as there’s no rationale to blame LL for those.

I personally think there are more than enough alternative explanations for the insulin cases, and definitely plenty of reasonable doubt.

Kittybythelighthouse · 19/08/2025 23:44

Glassmatt · 19/08/2025 22:47

I’ve not changed my mind because I never believed she was guilty. Having watched the recent documentary, I’m
even more secure with that view point.

Thanks for sharing 🙂

Oftenaddled · 19/08/2025 23:47

Here's the source for that insulin testing lab producing spectacularly wrong results on the same test, just a month after one of Lucy Letby's cases:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/were-the-blood-tests-in-lucy-letbys-conviction-flawed/

I don't understand how anyone can be sure about the insulin.

Firefly1987 · 19/08/2025 23:48

Typicalwave · 19/08/2025 23:17

But you’re a self proclaimed expert - you were here when it was all fields, way before the NYT article. And I may be wrong, but I cannot recall you ever coming back with evidence after you’ve made a claim.

Edited

I've posted plenty of sources on previous threads. It's just easier if everyone else knows what I'm talking about and I don't have to hunt for obscure articles from a very lengthy trial (or even from before the trial) but if no one else remembers I said I will find them if you give me a chance to.

GwendolineFairfax8 · 19/08/2025 23:48

Her conviction is obviously unsafe. I despair at the CPS.

Typicalwave · 19/08/2025 23:50

Firefly1987 · 19/08/2025 23:48

I've posted plenty of sources on previous threads. It's just easier if everyone else knows what I'm talking about and I don't have to hunt for obscure articles from a very lengthy trial (or even from before the trial) but if no one else remembers I said I will find them if you give me a chance to.

It must be my memory on the fritz.

Thank you

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 20/08/2025 06:15

The insulin expert at trial was highly reliable.

Kittybythelighthouse · 20/08/2025 06:38

A reminder that we are still in the midst of a nationwide maternity and neonatal crisis across the UK. Yesterday a new exploratory review was produced (linked below). In the past ten years since the 2015 spike in deaths at COCH we still haven’t significantly learned or changed anything.

Meanwhile many millions have been spent on a review into how a completely singular serial killing nurse could kill so many babies.

A serial killing nurse who had zero of the usual red flags in her past and upbringing, who no one saw do anything wrong in a cramped and tiny NICU room, who never researched anything to do with serial killing, but was so masterful at serial killing that she:

  1. Invented an entirely new method of killing (air/milk via nasogastric tube) that has since been thoroughly discredited and even walked back by the lead prosecution expert who now says it “doesn’t matter” how she did it, but she definitely did it.
  2. Used another murder method so expertly she left no diagnostic evidence whatsoever (venous air embolism)
  3. Used an insanely devious, or insanely lucky, method of physically attacking a baby in a tiny cramped NICU violently enough to cause fatal internal injuries but without being seen or suspected by anyone and without leaving any external marks.
  4. Used yet another method of attack (displacing breathing tube) despite apparently already having cracked two novel ways of killing that worked perfectly and left no trace. We know that she displaced this breathing tube because she didn’t call the doctor on duty (whose story changed three times) when the baby desaturated and that’s literally the only evidence against her, except a contemporaneous email from that very doctor shows that she did call call him. She’s still serving a whole life order for it anyway.
  5. Decided to attempt twice (and fail twice) to murder by insulin poisoning, again despite already having cracked other seemingly perfect murder methods, without any insulin being missing, without any signs of ever having bought or tried to buy insulin, and without even being in the hospital at the time. But it’s okay because the test used to show that she definitely did it - which isn’t reliable enough to get anyone fired, which showed enough insulin to kill a grown man but which didn’t kill either baby, and which returned even higher results in a testing error found during quality control at the same lab shortly afterwards - shows that she definitely did it anyway.

The Thirlwall Inquiry, which is projected to cost around twenty million pounds, aims to show us how to be safe from extraordinarily skilled serial killing nurses, but not how to save the countless lives that continue to be lost in a nationwide maternity and neonatal scandal that coincidentally was happening at the exact same time.

Note: the trial cost around 4.5 million. The police investigation has cost around 9 million to date. In total, including Thirlwall, that’s 33 million (rounding down) on one serial killing nurse that’s as devious as the Hooded Claw but stupid enough to create and leave evidence lying around her house despite already knowing she’s under investigation and already having had her house searched before.

Meanwhile the financial burden of maternity negligence far outstrips the actual funding allocated for services.

More is spent on maternity and neonatal litigation than on running or fixing maternity care and it’s likely that much more was spent on a one-of-a-kind serial killing nurse than will be spent on all of the coincidentally ongoing Maternity and Neonatal scandal inquiries combined.

(N.B: The Morecambe Bay Investigation cost just over 1 million. Full figures have not yet been released for other similar investigations)

https://www.hssib.org.uk/patient-safety-investigations/an-exploratory-review-of-maternity-and-neonatal-services/

Kittybythelighthouse · 20/08/2025 06:43

Quitelikeit · 20/08/2025 06:15

The insulin expert at trial was highly reliable.

As are the experts who strongly disagree. On what basis do you trust this one over the others?

bumbaloo · 20/08/2025 06:58

LadybugsAndSunshine · 19/08/2025 20:46

Didn’t she keep diaries that said things like, I did it, I killed them ect?

The same reason as a mother I wail the same things when I’m exhausted and depressed and blaming myself for something my dc are going through/have done.
‘It’s my fault, if I was a better mother this wouldn’t have happened’

mothers so often blame themselves. We failed them. It’s our fault we should have been able to fix this or that. If I was a better mother I would have been able to prevent it.

it is very conceivable that as a nurse who was emotionally struggling with the deaths she felt she was to blame in exactly the same way.

RigIt · 20/08/2025 06:59

Kittybythelighthouse · 20/08/2025 06:38

A reminder that we are still in the midst of a nationwide maternity and neonatal crisis across the UK. Yesterday a new exploratory review was produced (linked below). In the past ten years since the 2015 spike in deaths at COCH we still haven’t significantly learned or changed anything.

Meanwhile many millions have been spent on a review into how a completely singular serial killing nurse could kill so many babies.

A serial killing nurse who had zero of the usual red flags in her past and upbringing, who no one saw do anything wrong in a cramped and tiny NICU room, who never researched anything to do with serial killing, but was so masterful at serial killing that she:

  1. Invented an entirely new method of killing (air/milk via nasogastric tube) that has since been thoroughly discredited and even walked back by the lead prosecution expert who now says it “doesn’t matter” how she did it, but she definitely did it.
  2. Used another murder method so expertly she left no diagnostic evidence whatsoever (venous air embolism)
  3. Used an insanely devious, or insanely lucky, method of physically attacking a baby in a tiny cramped NICU violently enough to cause fatal internal injuries but without being seen or suspected by anyone and without leaving any external marks.
  4. Used yet another method of attack (displacing breathing tube) despite apparently already having cracked two novel ways of killing that worked perfectly and left no trace. We know that she displaced this breathing tube because she didn’t call the doctor on duty (whose story changed three times) when the baby desaturated and that’s literally the only evidence against her, except a contemporaneous email from that very doctor shows that she did call call him. She’s still serving a whole life order for it anyway.
  5. Decided to attempt twice (and fail twice) to murder by insulin poisoning, again despite already having cracked other seemingly perfect murder methods, without any insulin being missing, without any signs of ever having bought or tried to buy insulin, and without even being in the hospital at the time. But it’s okay because the test used to show that she definitely did it - which isn’t reliable enough to get anyone fired, which showed enough insulin to kill a grown man but which didn’t kill either baby, and which returned even higher results in a testing error found during quality control at the same lab shortly afterwards - shows that she definitely did it anyway.

The Thirlwall Inquiry, which is projected to cost around twenty million pounds, aims to show us how to be safe from extraordinarily skilled serial killing nurses, but not how to save the countless lives that continue to be lost in a nationwide maternity and neonatal scandal that coincidentally was happening at the exact same time.

Note: the trial cost around 4.5 million. The police investigation has cost around 9 million to date. In total, including Thirlwall, that’s 33 million (rounding down) on one serial killing nurse that’s as devious as the Hooded Claw but stupid enough to create and leave evidence lying around her house despite already knowing she’s under investigation and already having had her house searched before.

Meanwhile the financial burden of maternity negligence far outstrips the actual funding allocated for services.

More is spent on maternity and neonatal litigation than on running or fixing maternity care and it’s likely that much more was spent on a one-of-a-kind serial killing nurse than will be spent on all of the coincidentally ongoing Maternity and Neonatal scandal inquiries combined.

(N.B: The Morecambe Bay Investigation cost just over 1 million. Full figures have not yet been released for other similar investigations)

https://www.hssib.org.uk/patient-safety-investigations/an-exploratory-review-of-maternity-and-neonatal-services/

Edited

What an excellent summary of the (very expensive) shitshow this whole thing has and continues to be.

(And nice Penelope Pitstop reference 😀)

bumbaloo · 20/08/2025 07:04

Quitelikeit · 20/08/2025 06:15

The insulin expert at trial was highly reliable.

Hindmarsh? I’m not sure if the details but he relinquished his GMC registration in 2024. The reason has not been disclosed. And three later experts stated that his calculations were incorrect.

Typicalwave · 20/08/2025 07:18

Kittybythelighthouse · 20/08/2025 06:38

A reminder that we are still in the midst of a nationwide maternity and neonatal crisis across the UK. Yesterday a new exploratory review was produced (linked below). In the past ten years since the 2015 spike in deaths at COCH we still haven’t significantly learned or changed anything.

Meanwhile many millions have been spent on a review into how a completely singular serial killing nurse could kill so many babies.

A serial killing nurse who had zero of the usual red flags in her past and upbringing, who no one saw do anything wrong in a cramped and tiny NICU room, who never researched anything to do with serial killing, but was so masterful at serial killing that she:

  1. Invented an entirely new method of killing (air/milk via nasogastric tube) that has since been thoroughly discredited and even walked back by the lead prosecution expert who now says it “doesn’t matter” how she did it, but she definitely did it.
  2. Used another murder method so expertly she left no diagnostic evidence whatsoever (venous air embolism)
  3. Used an insanely devious, or insanely lucky, method of physically attacking a baby in a tiny cramped NICU violently enough to cause fatal internal injuries but without being seen or suspected by anyone and without leaving any external marks.
  4. Used yet another method of attack (displacing breathing tube) despite apparently already having cracked two novel ways of killing that worked perfectly and left no trace. We know that she displaced this breathing tube because she didn’t call the doctor on duty (whose story changed three times) when the baby desaturated and that’s literally the only evidence against her, except a contemporaneous email from that very doctor shows that she did call call him. She’s still serving a whole life order for it anyway.
  5. Decided to attempt twice (and fail twice) to murder by insulin poisoning, again despite already having cracked other seemingly perfect murder methods, without any insulin being missing, without any signs of ever having bought or tried to buy insulin, and without even being in the hospital at the time. But it’s okay because the test used to show that she definitely did it - which isn’t reliable enough to get anyone fired, which showed enough insulin to kill a grown man but which didn’t kill either baby, and which returned even higher results in a testing error found during quality control at the same lab shortly afterwards - shows that she definitely did it anyway.

The Thirlwall Inquiry, which is projected to cost around twenty million pounds, aims to show us how to be safe from extraordinarily skilled serial killing nurses, but not how to save the countless lives that continue to be lost in a nationwide maternity and neonatal scandal that coincidentally was happening at the exact same time.

Note: the trial cost around 4.5 million. The police investigation has cost around 9 million to date. In total, including Thirlwall, that’s 33 million (rounding down) on one serial killing nurse that’s as devious as the Hooded Claw but stupid enough to create and leave evidence lying around her house despite already knowing she’s under investigation and already having had her house searched before.

Meanwhile the financial burden of maternity negligence far outstrips the actual funding allocated for services.

More is spent on maternity and neonatal litigation than on running or fixing maternity care and it’s likely that much more was spent on a one-of-a-kind serial killing nurse than will be spent on all of the coincidentally ongoing Maternity and Neonatal scandal inquiries combined.

(N.B: The Morecambe Bay Investigation cost just over 1 million. Full figures have not yet been released for other similar investigations)

https://www.hssib.org.uk/patient-safety-investigations/an-exploratory-review-of-maternity-and-neonatal-services/

Edited

I do t think many people realise just how truly awful the state of maternity abx neonate services is, and has been for some time. That mothers and babies have been harmed or died needlessly for over 10 years now, and it’s been ignored. The scandals that have made the press have been little more than a feeble cry quickly lost to the next days headlines.

OP posts:
bumbaloo · 20/08/2025 07:18

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

The insulin expert Hindmarsh relinquished his registration with the GMC in 2024

usually the only reason an individual would do this would be upon retirement but he hasn’t retired. According to the GMC:

Professor Hindmarsh relinquished his registration with the General Medical Council (GMC) because he no longer wished to be subject to the GMC's regulatory oversight

😑

Efacsen · 20/08/2025 07:24

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

Those charges have been a long time coming and one has to wonder why - Phil Hammond, Private Eye thinks that the process has stalled due to the retirement of Dewi Evans and the inability to find anyone to replace him

GwendolineFairfax8 · 20/08/2025 07:55

Quitelikeit · 19/08/2025 23:30

Guilty!

There was the insulin issue (no it wasn’t disproven by a different expert) and also many coincidences and other factors that added up to something sinister

Confirmed by those in court who were viewing the case in real time

Plus additional charges are coming her way!

I really hope you are never called for jury service.

Holdingonfornow · 20/08/2025 08:11

I know it has been said before, but it definitely does have the flavour of a witch hunt

Frequency · 20/08/2025 08:35

It baffles me how people have such blind faith in the system. She was found guilty; therefore, she must be guilty, no matter how many highly regarded, highly qualified people are unsure of the safety of her conviction.

Even the people who designed the system do not have such unwavering faith in it, which is why the CCRC exists in the first place, to rectify the mistakes those in charge acknowledge have happened.

Since 1997, 876 cases have been referred back to the appeals courts, of which 595 were successful. That's almost 70%. The system admits it made a mistake in 70% of the cases referred for appeal by the CCRC, but Letby is guilty because the system said so, and we should all stop talking about it?

Glassmatt · 20/08/2025 08:45

Frequency · 20/08/2025 08:35

It baffles me how people have such blind faith in the system. She was found guilty; therefore, she must be guilty, no matter how many highly regarded, highly qualified people are unsure of the safety of her conviction.

Even the people who designed the system do not have such unwavering faith in it, which is why the CCRC exists in the first place, to rectify the mistakes those in charge acknowledge have happened.

Since 1997, 876 cases have been referred back to the appeals courts, of which 595 were successful. That's almost 70%. The system admits it made a mistake in 70% of the cases referred for appeal by the CCRC, but Letby is guilty because the system said so, and we should all stop talking about it?

Exactly!

Someone up thread replied with something along the lines of “Well she didn’t look shocked when she was arrested” when responding to why she thinks she guilty!! Oh well then if she looked resined she must be guilty then aye…. 🙄

Terrifying!

tinybeautiful · 20/08/2025 09:24

I don't know whether she's guilty or not.

The people I feel most sorry for by far are the parents who will never ever, no matter what happens from here, be able to rest in the absolute knowledge of how their children died. I am a NICU parent and I cannot even imagine their anguish.

The social media 'stalking' doesn't strike me as that uncommon - I have certainly searched for some of our nurses and am even friends with a few on FB. The bit that does strike me as unusual is the specific dates - NICU nurses look after hundreds of babies a year, and sadly some die, it doesn't seem unusual to look up their families to see how they're getting on, but to remember the dates makes me uncomfortable that there was more going on there.

Kittybythelighthouse · 20/08/2025 09:36

bumbaloo · 20/08/2025 06:58

The same reason as a mother I wail the same things when I’m exhausted and depressed and blaming myself for something my dc are going through/have done.
‘It’s my fault, if I was a better mother this wouldn’t have happened’

mothers so often blame themselves. We failed them. It’s our fault we should have been able to fix this or that. If I was a better mother I would have been able to prevent it.

it is very conceivable that as a nurse who was emotionally struggling with the deaths she felt she was to blame in exactly the same way.

Kathleen Folbigg (Australian mum convicted of killing her four children) and Lucia De Berk (Dutch neonatal nurse convicted of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 3) both wrote similar ‘incriminating’ notes in diaries. In fact they did so more than Lucy Letby did, but neither of them actually committed any crimes.

Both were eventually exonerated - Folbigg was released in 2024, De Berk in 2010. Both were initially suspected because of suspicion based on a misunderstanding of statistics - the idea that this ‘couldn’t be a coincidence’, which led to confirmation bias in building cases around them. Both had poor medical/forensic evidence overstated, massaged, or misinterpreted used against them. Both had diaries or personal notes misinterpreted in the worst possible light used against them.

In both cases once the statistical evidence and medical evidence was dismantled by experts and all that was left was the subjective interpretation of weak circumstantial evidence many still clung to a belief that those evidences were strong enough, in the absence of actual evidence of murder in the first place, to prove guilt. This is despite the fact that in both cases such supposedly clear evidence of guilt would not have been enough to investigate let alone convict in the first place without the (by then discredited) statistical and medical evidence that there were any murders at all.

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

Side note: Roy Meadow, a now disgraced paediatrician, was the dangerous fool behind “One sudden infant death is a tragedy, two is suspicious, three is murder unless proven otherwise.” statistical mistake that led to several women in Britain (and elsewhere) including Sally Clark and Kathleen Folbigg, being wrongly imprisoned for life for murdering their children. Many families and lives were utterly destroyed by this foolish misinterpretation of statistics that is convincing to the average layperson as ‘common sense’ on its face.

That's the problem in starting a case due to a ‘common sense’ misunderstanding of statistics, using confirmation bias to fill in the picture, and then, after all of that falls apart, clinging onto weak and subjectively interpreted circumstantial evidence that you wouldn’t even have without the rest. Again, sound familiar?

Important footnote:

Roy Meadow was known to Dewi Evans and admired by him. They together co-signed a letter to the GMC against “frivolous complaints” by mothers accused of Munchausens by Proxy.

Dr Jayaram and Dr Gibbs - two of the COCH consultants who testified against Lucy Letby - signed several letters in support of Meadow when he was struck off for utterly destroying so many lives.