Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3

[Typicalwave]

New thread for those following or wishing to comment - originally started by @kittybythelighthouse.

It's a pity that no-one wondered if the TPN bags were responsible at the time and that they didn't retain them for analysis. Imagine if it had been a bad batch or contaminated in some other way. The way it has been presented is that it was blindingly obvious that they were responsible. Why was there so little investigation at the time to determine what was causing the deterioration? I would have thought it routine to examine every aspect of treatment in order to inform any further treatment.

It just wasn't unusual enough for anyone to retain TPN bags, @MistressoftheDarkSide . Both children had sepsis, which can cause hypoglycemia. Both were in the first week of life when hypoglycemia is common. Baby F had borderline growth restriction which adds to the chances of hypoglycemia, and Baby L was less than 72 hours old, when it is most common.

But what the nursing staff would do - not just Lucy Letby because it was always two hanging medicine - is check the bags for leaks before hanging them!

Now you’re just teetering into the realms if the ridiculous.

There is nothing ‘fine’ about a set of twins who had twin-twin transfer, one had dilated bowel loops (E) the other had IUGR, the were clear issues evidenced in an antenatal ultrasound where the blood flow from the placenta was an issue (so both babies had likely experienced hypoxia events in utero)

Those things alone, without the 3 events of low blood sugar, are not factors for well, healthy, stable babies.

Babies who are fine and stable are not admitted to the NNU straight or shortly after birth. It’s a total fantasy to believe they are.

Because the actual truth is that hypoglycaemia is not rare in premature babies and immunoassays are fairly routine in a NICU.

The babies didn’t show real signs of anything very out of the ordinary, hence why the tests were not followed up on even slightly and no eyebrows were raised until Brearey went hunting for a “smoking gun” against LL years later because the police wouldn’t investigate on the basis of the other evidence.

That’s the actual truth. It was all massaged in retrospect to seem like this shocking poisoning event, when really the incidents seemed like routine episodes of premature neonatal hypoglycaemia until they needed to become something more dramatic years later.

That baby was not fine.

A 29 week premature baby with a host of issues including TTTS is never “fine”. None of those babies were fine. That’s why they were in a NICU. It’s an intensive care unit, not a daycare. They were very poorly babies.

This.

If the hypoglycaemia and the assay results had been head turning, then heads would have turned.

The assay was dismissed as being inaccurate - coearly this wasnt an unusual occurrence.

Whichever way you want to spin it, the baby was not having major issues until put on that nutrient bag!

That story is most likely about the tonic neck reflex, which you can see even in premature babies.

I don't know what that means but I doubt it means the baby can roll over and put it's arm around a teddy. Lucy put the baby into that position, to twist the knife in further.

And yes, you would wait for parents' permission before removing their child from the ward where at all possible. Don't you think people would criticize Lucy Letby if the parents said, we came down to the ward expecting to see him and he was gone?

We're talking hours later. It shouldn't be up to the parents to make all these decisions. Not without even being asked. What would Lucy do otherwise-leave the baby there indefinitely?!

Well no one here can believe a nurse would kill babies or spike a nutrient bag so it's not odd that no one thought "hmm wonder if someone is trying to poison babies"-they were looking for natural explanations.

No.

Reasonable people are finding it difficult to believe that others think a nurse managing to successfully spike two ton bags correctly (the second one being needed as a result of line failure so conpletely unexpected and administered WHILST LETBY WAS OFF SHIFT) via TAMPERPROOF MECHANISMS, with no detecting of leaks in the bags as they were hung, no missing insulin, no internet searches about insulin spiking or insulin procurement IS MORE PLAUSIBLE than other possibilities offered by experts in their field as to what happened.

There was NO EVIDENCE that Letby spiked those bags - and absence of evidence is no evidence at all.

I simply don’t see it at all like you do. I don’t think you’re a bad person though. I just think you’ve been misled by vicious framing and bad information. You do seem to think I’m a bad person, because I would be if I accepted even a fraction of the framing that you have fully taken on as fact. I don’t accept it though. I reject it all.

How big of you 😆I don't think you're a bad person although some of the things you've said about people involved in the case hasn't been very nice. I don't think I've done the same-I mean I think Mark Mcdonald is an enormous self-aggrandizing prick but he doesn't have me seething with rage. I just think you should realise that IF you are wrong you've just gone and slandered a bunch of innocent people involved in trying to get justice. You don't seem to understand or care about that.

From my perspective, following over a year of pretty close research, I’ve come to the conclusion that she’s just a fairly ordinary English nurse, who worked more than anyone else, who took all the overtime she could because she was saving for a house, and who unfortunately fell in the firing line when a doctor panicked about rising death rate (not understanding that it was a statistically normal random cluster) and had a gut feeling that she was “always there” (she wasn’t). It spiralled wildly out of control, but it all grew from that.

Er that's not at all what happened! You're conveniently missing out about the suddenness of collapses, the difficulty in resuscitation that was unusual and the mysterious never before seen rashes, amongst other things. She was there for ALL deaths. It was said in one of the Panorama docs.

I have a hunch that level 5 nurses don't actually decide unit protocol around deaths, bodies and living siblings. The shift leader, perhaps, would have had discretion here. But waiting for the parents' decision seems right, given that they would be separating the child from his twin permanently once the body left the ward. Really it is scraping the barrel to blame Lucy Letby for this.

How could it be twisting the knife to take a photograph the parents appreciated - until they were told a nurse had murdered their child? Tonic is turning the head and flinging out the opposite arm in the direction the head is facing - quite enough for what you describe. Though really if she had arranged the child that way, which I doubt, it would likely only be to try to comfort the parents with a keepsake.

Why didn't Lucy say any of this then? If it was me I'm sure the exchange with the police or prosecution would've gone something like this-
"No I didn't spike any bag, it would be impossible anyway because everything is sealed and tamperproof"

and

"No I don't think anyone else spiked a bag! None of my colleagues would ever do something like that."

See how easy that was?

Not "yeah they must've been poisoned, but it wasn't me" 🙄

I’m not “spinning” anything. That baby was extremely unwell and it is pure nonsense to claim otherwise. It’s not your fault you were fed a lie, but it is a barefaced lie.

That aside, LL wasn’t even there, so why on earth are they linking her to this anyway? Do you remember?

Also, did we figure out yet how one injects insulin into a TPN bag without breaking the tamper proof seal or tearing the cellophane that it’s packaged in for extra security?

I see no one on Tattle was able to come up with a rational explanation for that, Arguing that insulin needles are small enough to bypass the careful security layers on a TPN bag and port is completely absurd. The main purpose of the security layers is to make it impossible to introduce a needle to the bag without that being evident.

TPN bags are transparent and designed to show cloudiness and leaks if the contents are compromised. Port seals and the outer cellophane layer are specifically meant to make surreptitious entry impossible without leaving evidence. Even if someone managed to get a needle through the outer bag and inner bag wall, nurses are trained to reject any bag showing even slight irregularities (damaged overwrap, wetness, broken seals, discolouration, etc.). They check them for signs of a breach before hanging. That’s the entire point of the seals and packaging. An attempt to inject something would leave visible signs to trained staff.

So, practically speaking, tampering with a TPN bag without it being obvious is a massive stretch even once let alone several times. It wouldn’t be quick either, yet no one saw her tamper with any bags in a busy NICU and there was no insulin missing.

What caused those rashes @Firefly1987 ?

How could it be twisting the knife to take a photograph the parents appreciated - until they were told a nurse had murdered their child?

Because it's devastating. The twin shouldn't have died and she's trying to make them upset by saying the remaining baby clutched his dead brothers toy. The brother he no longer has.

The parents said they found the anecdote comforting at the time, though. I think you need to look elsewhere for any evidence of Lucy Letby "trying to make them upset".

They're upset, naturally enough, about everything about Lucy Letby since being told she murdered their child. That is a natural human reaction. It says nothing about Lucy Letby herself.

Genuine question of posters who know the transcripts better than I do - was there really no discussion about the tamper-proof nature of the bags during the trial? If the bags are impossible to tamper with without it being completely apparent to anyone who’s not even looking for evidence of tampering, surely it is the most obvious thing for her defence to have raised and I can’t believe that they wouldn’t have done. As I recall, plenty of other bits of medical equipment were shown to the jury so it just seems very odd if this wasn’t also addressed.

Christ on a bike.

I really think you're reaching here. You're fixated on the idea that Lucy Letby murdered babies for pure enjoyment, and are determined that every tiny thing she said or did - allegedly, recalled years down the line, and in the context of reframing her as a monster - reflects this

Yet there is nothing to suggest such a pathology prior to that.

If I had a pound for every awkward but well-meaning thing that has been said or done after my DP died suddenly after a short illness, I'd be considerably better off than I actually am. That's from professionals to close friends.

Please explain how she tampered with the bags without being caught. I couldn't see it before, but this extremely long and detailed exchange on this thread has pretty much proved it would have been impossible.

“…although some of the things you've said about people involved in the case hasn't been very nice. I don't think I've done the same-I mean I think Mark Mcdonald is an enormous self-aggrandizing prick but he doesn't have me seething with rage.”

Oh come on now, Firefly! Be serious. You almost had me there.

“I just think you should realise that IF you are wrong you've just gone and slandered a bunch of innocent people involved in trying to get justice. You don't seem to understand or care about that.”

A: I don’t understand how you fail to see that this is just as true for you, but in reverse.

B: Everything I’ve said here is thoughtful and considered. Do you think I am just freewheeling here? I’m not afraid of Dewi Evans. I’m not afraid of Cheshire police. All of those people absorbed plenty of public money for this farce and I’m entitled to criticise them. End of story.

C: I don’t seethe at Nick Johnson, who was just doing his job and he’s very good at it. I disagree strongly with many of his lines of questioning, which I found crass, unnecessary, a bit slippery, and sometimes misogynistic, but it’s a ‘hate the game not the player’ moment given such performances are what our justice system currently demands.

As I’ve said before, it is literally his job to spin a compelling narrative and he must be very good because you still don’t seem to understand that prosecution allegations aren’t facts. This fact was even underlined by Judge Goss to the jury at the trial. Anything a barrister says is not evidence. He would have been the polar opposite had he been her defence barrister. It’s not personal. He’s not on your team. He’s just a prosecuting barrister doing what prosecuting barristers do.

“Er that's not at all what happened! You're conveniently missing out about the suddenness of collapses, the difficulty in resuscitation that was unusual and the mysterious never before seen rashes, amongst other things.”

Firstly : Christ, Firefly. Ae you really going to make me address all this tired stuff again and again and again for all eternity?!

Secondly: well done illustrating exactly my point instead of making the effort to engage in good faith and understand that I simply don’t agree with you. I have extremely good reasons for that which have already been shared with you ad infinitum.

“She was there for ALL deaths. It was said in one of the Panorama docs.”

FFS. You cannot be this gullible. I simply refuse to accept that you’re this gullible.

She was not there for all the deaths. She wasn’t even there for all the ones she’s serving time for!

How many errors have Moritz and Coffey made between their three panoramas and the book which has to be updated constantly? Do you know? Because I’ve entirely lost track. Remember just a week ago they had to re-edit the show to address errors and issue an apology? Well I do.

@rubbishatballet I quoted that section of the transcript in my first comment today re the TPN bags. As above.

If your point is that “this was brought up at trial so it’s already totally fine” then please rest assured that I’m well aware it was discussed at trial (but not demonstrated or shown to be possible).

That doesn’t magically turn an untruth: TPN bags can be tampered with undetected, into a truth - the point of the safety measures and bag design is to prevent contamination via
a needle.

It makes not a blind bit of difference to the truth what fancy footwork and manoeuvring NJ did in the court, or how well anyone is convinced by him. He didn’t prove that TPN bags can be tampered with without it being obvious, because that is not true.

Courts aren’t magical spaces where untrue things become true because a barrister said so.

can I also recommend the youtube channel Crime scene two courtroom, I forgot about him and I also listened to him a lot during the trial. Let me guess, kitty doesn't rate him either 😆

But I've listened to all your arguments. You won't change your mind and I won't change mine, so I guess we're both arguing in bad faith.

I've seen quite a few people state that they began to feel uneasy about the case watching the Crime Scene 2 Courtroom channel, because the presenter's melodramatic reading and acting and commentary make it all sound especially ridiculous.

Anyway, he's useful for quoting chunks of transcript, but he's obviously selective in what he quotes, and his commentary isn't impressive.

If transcripts were easily available I don't think he'd have much following. I find it appalling that they're not - and in fact that many convicted prisoners can't have records of their own trials. Transcripts are routinely destroyed after so many years - ten, I think it was. Shocking.

@Kittybythelighthouse A: I don’t understand how you fail to see that this is just as true for you, but in reverse.

I don't think I've used such strong words as you about anyone. I mean what you said about Liz Hull for a start...she's just reporting on the case FFS. How in the hell is it her fault she makes the serial killer look bad? The new "experts" are not going to be upset and offended that I think they're irrelevant. And they sure as hell haven't worked on this case for YEARS either like the consultants/police/experts etc.

C: I don’t seethe at Nick Johnson, who was just doing his job and he’s very good at it. I disagree strongly with many of his lines of questioning, which I found crass, unnecessary, a bit slippery, and sometimes misogynistic, but it’s a ‘hate the game not the player’ moment given such performances are what our justice system currently demands.

Nick Johnson seems to get away lightly in all this-no idea why! Well at least up until the point someone suggested he could be a narcissist which is just about the most ironic thing. It's everyone else you seem to hate-consultants, police, journalists who reported on the trial and made her look guilty...

Firstly : Christ, Firefly. Ae you really going to make me address all this tired stuff again and again and again for all eternity?!

But you missed out most of the reasons for why they started investigating-now who is arguing in bad faith!