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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3

983 replies

Typicalwave · 19/08/2025 18:43

New thread for those following or wishing to comment - originally started by @kittybythelighthouse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
40
Insanityisnotastrategy · 22/08/2025 10:42

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 10:40

Sometimes I feel like Alice in Wonderland in this conversation and this is one of those times 🐛 🐇 🕰️ 🎩 ☕️ 🫖 🃏 😭

There are definitely some posters who seem able to believe at least six impossible things before breakfast!

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 10:51

Insanityisnotastrategy · 22/08/2025 10:42

There are definitely some posters who seem able to believe at least six impossible things before breakfast!

"If you didn't sign it," said the King,
"that only makes the matter worse.
You must have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed your name like an honest man."

"That proves his guilt," said the Queen.

It is literally like that 🫠

FrippEnos · 22/08/2025 12:36

Insanityisnotastrategy · 22/08/2025 10:30

Emails between the consultants show them digging through everything they could find to throw suspicion on Letby and 'pique' the police's interest. But no I don't think it was a conspiracy in the most sinister sense. Once Letby was suspected, lots of confirmation bias set in and of course we know they weren't on the unit much and found it much easier to point fingers than notice their own poor practice.

The more I read about the start of this case the more (IMO) it reminds me of those playground/school room squabbles that get out of hand.
someone get reported for doing something,
They get together with other people that have been reported and tell on the person that reported them.
Its all investigated and come back as nothing, the group is not happy so gets someone else involved, and it goes up and up until someone with an ego/agenda twists it to make the first person the villain. how/why it started is forgotten and the original person that did nothing wrong is seen as a nasty person as no-one knows how it started.

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 13:51

Misunderstandings about how the British justice system functions are threaded through this case. I think a lot of this misunderstanding comes from familiarity with American courtroom dramas and televised trials while most British people (thankfully) may never set foot in a British court.

To take one example, the frequent question “why didn’t the defence call experts?” Well, the thing is, they tried to. For example:

On Day 3 of the trial the defence made a motion to call three of their expert witnesses. They wanted each of their experts to testify back to back with the prosecution experts, to avoid many months of prosecution case for each count before they could begin addressing any of it.

The prosecution objected to the Defence’s proposal to interleave the experts (prosecution expert for one charge first, then defence etc) and they wanted Letby to testify first. The judge agreed. This is procedurally sound, technically, but in a complex case like this where 22 charges were presented in one trial it is very arguable that this approach put the defence at a great structural disadvantage.

Letby (in her police interrogation) had agreed to things like timings and Baby K being paralysed under morphine which Dr. Hall disputed and which we now know were untrue. Dr Hall identified several problems in the prosecution narrative that Letby had accepted during her gruelling police interrogations, long before any defence experts were consulted.

Letby was clear in the interrogation that she had no memory of Baby K, so she just accepted everything the police stated about that event - not allegations about any malfeasance - just that the events (timings, medications, and other supposed facts) had happened as she was being told they had.

In the police interview facts around the Baby K case were largely based on door swipe data and Dr Jayaram’s account. The trouble is that both the door swipe data and Dr Jayaram’s account would later prove to be nonsense, but it was too late by then for her to object to what she had naively accepted in her police interview. At trial she could (and often did) contradict what she said in her police interviews, given what she later learned, but this was usually framed by NJ as ‘lying’ or backtracking. This is completely alien to people, even Britons, who are more used to U.S. courtroom dramas where defence experts can be deployed tactically in the middle of the state’s case.

The defence was out manoeuvred. Interleaving was refused and the defence had to wait until after all 22 counts of Crown evidence were presented. The defence were therefore structurally disadvantaged: when they finally could have brought in expert witnesses, the jury was already saturated with months of prosecution narrative.

Meanwhile, Dr Jayaram and Dr A gave entirely different accounts in court compared to what they said in police interviews, yet their later versions were accepted without question, and the earlier contradictions brushed aside. As usual in this case, there’s one rule for the consultants and another for Lucy Letby.

Is that fair? Many would say it is not. This is just one example of how the complex and often unwieldy apparatus of British justice operates. It’s definitely not perfect. Many expect it to be common sense or more straightforward.

This is a great example btw of how you should never agree to being interviewed by police without a lawyer present, no matter how innocent you are. Innocent people often think they can “just tell the truth” and nothing bad can happen. But if you don’t know the technicalities, you end up accepting false premises, and those answers can be locked in as evidence against you, as they were against Lucy Letby.

(Portions of the relevant Day 3 transcripts pictured)

Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3
Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3
Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3
Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind - thread 3
Hotflushesandchilblains · 22/08/2025 14:35

That is really interesting @Kittybythelighthouse - I did not know about the defence application but it is easy to see how months and months of the jury sitting with prosecution claims without rebuttal would skew things. I have some experience of coroners courts and have seen how people giving evidence are put under pressure to confuse them and make them unsure of themselves. I hope we get some reform as a result of this case.

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 16:27

Hotflushesandchilblains · 22/08/2025 14:35

That is really interesting @Kittybythelighthouse - I did not know about the defence application but it is easy to see how months and months of the jury sitting with prosecution claims without rebuttal would skew things. I have some experience of coroners courts and have seen how people giving evidence are put under pressure to confuse them and make them unsure of themselves. I hope we get some reform as a result of this case.

This was a huge and complex trial, legally speaking. There were many times where procedure took precedence over justice. Meanwhile, reporting restrictions kicked in as soon as she was charged and remained in place until after both trials completed, for about four years.

During this time broadcasters, blogs etc. could not lawfully publish opinion pieces, speculation, or background material that might suggest innocence, or problems with the evidence at all. During such bans media are only allowed to report what happened at trial, without opinion or interpretation. It didn’t matter which experts were desperate to speak out, or which journalists, they weren’t allowed to.

As I’ve said before, in practice this means that the media will generally only report prosecution allegations, which are generally more salacious and lurid and in this context motivated to be even more so, which is another reason why every accusation NJ threw out shouldn’t be taken as gospel.

Headlines like:

“SHE HAS THROWN OPEN THE DOOR TO HELL, AND THE STENCH OF EVIL OVERWHELMS US ALL!”

Will always get more clicks than direct defence quotes like:

”The case is complex, it is not straightforward. The evidence will require careful, fair and dispassionate examination.”

And there were YEARS of the former narrative before anyone else could be heard at all.

Insanityisnotastrategy · 22/08/2025 16:52

That headline has very Victorian vibes!

samarrange · 22/08/2025 17:44

Typicalwave · 22/08/2025 10:25

In my experience, in a failing system wgere multiple people have made multiple fuck ups and just followed along (and I’ve experienced that) it’s less of a conspiracy and more people unable to examine their own role and u thinkingly finding ‘evidence’ because they truly believe I’ve seen the ‘reason’ with Whats going ‘wrong’ - and then building layer upon layer of confirmation bias. I’ve watched it happen.

Dewi Evans did it himself - ooh, it’s deliberate harm (within 10 minutes) and then going forward and looking for ‘deliberate harm’, then submitting 34 ‘suspicious’ files to the police wgere he admits names were not redacted in nursing and medical notes, then whittling those down iver timed including AFTER Letby’s arrest in July 2018.

and then building layer upon layer of confirmation bias. I’ve watched it happen.

As we saw clearly in the Post Office case, which has similarities to the LL case in that the issue is not who committed the crime, it's whether any crime was committed at all. Plus the fact that the jury/juries could not be expected to be independently able to evaluate the expert-level evidence (physiology or autopsy reports in one case, software bugs in the other).

I wonder if there are still a few holdouts, within or outside the Post Office, who believe that maybe the sub-postmasters were really nicking all that money?

MargaretThursday · 22/08/2025 19:46

I don't think this is conspiracy, but it could easily be one person with a vendetta.

My experience of a situation can show how one person can push a lie by careful comments.

When we came out of covid, H&S put in their risk assessment that we shouldn't go into each other's areas. We were told this in a meeting and Bully (B) was there, and objected that sometimes he needed to come into my office. I said that when he needed to, that was fine, but if it was just a case of "please pass me X" then I was happy to do it when I was there.
Within a week I heard him telling people that I had "banned him from the office".
So I contacted H&S and asked them to speak to him. I was there when he was told the decision was nothing at all to do with me and no one was "banned" from anywhere.
Two weeks later I was asked by a Senior manager, why I'd banned him from the office. I said I hadn't, and referred him to H&S. SM apologised to me.
Two months later, I was leaked an email which B had sent round to a group of senior managers accusing me of several things which I had not had anything to do with, including banning him from the office.
He was (I was unofficially told) told that the email had been investigated and found untrue on all accounts. Officially I didn't know the email, and didn't want to drop the leaker in so it was hard to put in further objections.
A year later, someone else asked me if I needed help with something, and should they ask person T to come in to help. I didn't need help, and said, no, it was fine, and I'd be better on my own. They responded with "You can't ban T from the office, you know."
This was a person who had told me previously that B was manipulative and would influence people to get his own way. They would regard themselves (and still do) as having a high level of integrity and I thought knew me well - they'd certainly known and worked with me longer than B, and I'd done a lot for them both in my job and personally. I had never had a conversation with them where they could have thought that I was doing anything of the kind.

That is how someone who is manipulative and determined can drive an agenda, and use "nice" people who "come to their rescue" as they play the victim while actually being the aggressor.

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 21:31

Typicalwave · 21/08/2025 21:39

You argued yourself just a few days ago that Letby lied and falsified the timings of Baby E’s collapse, which the prosecution asserted too and told Letby she must be lying about yhd times to give herself opportunity to leave baby E without care gof an hour before calling the registrar, , despite the fact that the registrar’s, Letby’s and the midwife’s (on a different ward) contemporaneous notes of events all matched up and it was mothers phone call time stamps from her phone provider that were an hour out.

Once again, of course Lucy and the others' testimonies match up because she didn't call anyone until 10p.m. No one else was in the room but Lucy and the mum to know what might've happened earlier. How on earth does the midwife know what happened at 9 if she wasn't even on the same ward?!

The mum saw Lucy with her son and blood all around his mouth and Lucy denied all this later on along with having told the mother to leave. Do you really think the mother would've left her baby if Lucy hadn't been trying to get rid of her and fobbing her off with the registrar being on the way? Wouldn't have happened. Lucy is a pathological liar so yes the prosecution were right. All she could do was deny everything the mother said she saw. God knows what she did to that poor baby.

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 22:40

Kittybythelighthouse · 21/08/2025 23:42

I think this is a good approach and it’s very like the process I went through myself when I first started thinking about the case. I didn’t start out assuming innocence by any stretch. It took a long time of research and weighing various pieces of evidence before I came to the conclusion that she’s (imo) almost certainly innocent.

It took a long time of research and weighing various pieces of evidence before I came to the conclusion that she’s (imo) almost certainly innocent.

OR what's more likely is this comment will almost certainly age like milk.

It’s very obvious now why having “followed the trial from the beginning” has made you so entrenched, given that only the prosecution allegations were printed on front pages and disseminated on social media for the entire duration of the reporting bans and you were taking it all in as reportage of fact. It wasn’t then and it isn’t now. It’s the prosecution’s version of events. Nothing more. It might be true, or parts of it might be, but it also might be completely wrong.

No it's just that the prosecution case was far more compelling, for obvious reasons. You could say that for any case "oh you only thought x other serial killer was guilty because their defence was so poor"-well yeah obviously! She IS guilty. If she wasn't her defence would be able to counter all the things that made her look bad. And we'd have heard about it. They can't do that because it's what actually happened. How many times have different people (other staff and parents) said a baby suddenly collapsed and Lucy Letby was the only one there? They can't ALL be mistaken or lying. I imagine Myers was scrambling around for literally ANYTHING to counter the prosecution's version of events. The fact he couldn't tells you everything you need to know.

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 23:17

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 13:51

Misunderstandings about how the British justice system functions are threaded through this case. I think a lot of this misunderstanding comes from familiarity with American courtroom dramas and televised trials while most British people (thankfully) may never set foot in a British court.

To take one example, the frequent question “why didn’t the defence call experts?” Well, the thing is, they tried to. For example:

On Day 3 of the trial the defence made a motion to call three of their expert witnesses. They wanted each of their experts to testify back to back with the prosecution experts, to avoid many months of prosecution case for each count before they could begin addressing any of it.

The prosecution objected to the Defence’s proposal to interleave the experts (prosecution expert for one charge first, then defence etc) and they wanted Letby to testify first. The judge agreed. This is procedurally sound, technically, but in a complex case like this where 22 charges were presented in one trial it is very arguable that this approach put the defence at a great structural disadvantage.

Letby (in her police interrogation) had agreed to things like timings and Baby K being paralysed under morphine which Dr. Hall disputed and which we now know were untrue. Dr Hall identified several problems in the prosecution narrative that Letby had accepted during her gruelling police interrogations, long before any defence experts were consulted.

Letby was clear in the interrogation that she had no memory of Baby K, so she just accepted everything the police stated about that event - not allegations about any malfeasance - just that the events (timings, medications, and other supposed facts) had happened as she was being told they had.

In the police interview facts around the Baby K case were largely based on door swipe data and Dr Jayaram’s account. The trouble is that both the door swipe data and Dr Jayaram’s account would later prove to be nonsense, but it was too late by then for her to object to what she had naively accepted in her police interview. At trial she could (and often did) contradict what she said in her police interviews, given what she later learned, but this was usually framed by NJ as ‘lying’ or backtracking. This is completely alien to people, even Britons, who are more used to U.S. courtroom dramas where defence experts can be deployed tactically in the middle of the state’s case.

The defence was out manoeuvred. Interleaving was refused and the defence had to wait until after all 22 counts of Crown evidence were presented. The defence were therefore structurally disadvantaged: when they finally could have brought in expert witnesses, the jury was already saturated with months of prosecution narrative.

Meanwhile, Dr Jayaram and Dr A gave entirely different accounts in court compared to what they said in police interviews, yet their later versions were accepted without question, and the earlier contradictions brushed aside. As usual in this case, there’s one rule for the consultants and another for Lucy Letby.

Is that fair? Many would say it is not. This is just one example of how the complex and often unwieldy apparatus of British justice operates. It’s definitely not perfect. Many expect it to be common sense or more straightforward.

This is a great example btw of how you should never agree to being interviewed by police without a lawyer present, no matter how innocent you are. Innocent people often think they can “just tell the truth” and nothing bad can happen. But if you don’t know the technicalities, you end up accepting false premises, and those answers can be locked in as evidence against you, as they were against Lucy Letby.

(Portions of the relevant Day 3 transcripts pictured)

@Firefly1987 I wrote this comment earlier today and I think you’d benefit from reading it.

GwendolineFairfax8 · 22/08/2025 23:26

Defence witnesss can merely decide not to attend - for all manner of reasons but mostly, one might argue, because they do not want to implicate themselves. This is wrong and they should be forced to attend.

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 23:33

@GwendolineFairfax8 I think Dr Hall was all ready to testify and then the defence decided not to call him. He still doesn't know why.

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 23:34

GwendolineFairfax8 · 22/08/2025 23:26

Defence witnesss can merely decide not to attend - for all manner of reasons but mostly, one might argue, because they do not want to implicate themselves. This is wrong and they should be forced to attend.

Are you referring to someone in the Letby trial here @GwendolineFairfax8?

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 23:36

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 23:33

@GwendolineFairfax8 I think Dr Hall was all ready to testify and then the defence decided not to call him. He still doesn't know why.

Did you read my other comment? There are a multitude of reasons why he might not have been called. Most of them procedural. Why do you think he wasn’t called?

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 23:53

Kittybythelighthouse · 22/08/2025 23:36

Did you read my other comment? There are a multitude of reasons why he might not have been called. Most of them procedural. Why do you think he wasn’t called?

Yes I did read it. I have no idea why he wasn't called, why would I if even he doesn't know?! I'm not sure why you think the structure or procedure of the trial has any bearing on anything tbh. It would've been compelling to have an expert come out and debunk everything the prosecution experts said (if possible) even if it came a long time after. And being left with all that doubt cast on her guilt might've swayed the jury to not guilty. I think if it was me I'd be begging for them to get someone on the stand in my defence, but that's just me! Though if I was guilty I probably wouldn't...

I just realised yesterday was 2 years since she was sentenced to life in prison with a whole life order. That was a good day for justice.

LancashireButterPie · 23/08/2025 00:02

Oftenaddled · 19/08/2025 21:12

I don't think Dewi Evans knew what he was talking about at all. He has changed his mind on methods of murder.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/20/my-kind-of-case-intense-focus-falls-on-lucy-letby-trial-expert-witness

The man whose research he used said he is getting it wrong.

He said on the recent Panorama Documentary that he didn't believe it mattered how the babies were killed. That is going to do the prosecution case an awful lot of harm, since it was his job to tell the jury what were the most likely causes of death

That man is so arrogant.
He volunteered his services to the police as he heard about the case on the radio and he said on the documentary "I just knew she was guilty".

Neonates wasn't even his area of expertise.

Oftenaddled · 23/08/2025 00:06

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 21:31

Once again, of course Lucy and the others' testimonies match up because she didn't call anyone until 10p.m. No one else was in the room but Lucy and the mum to know what might've happened earlier. How on earth does the midwife know what happened at 9 if she wasn't even on the same ward?!

The mum saw Lucy with her son and blood all around his mouth and Lucy denied all this later on along with having told the mother to leave. Do you really think the mother would've left her baby if Lucy hadn't been trying to get rid of her and fobbing her off with the registrar being on the way? Wouldn't have happened. Lucy is a pathological liar so yes the prosecution were right. All she could do was deny everything the mother said she saw. God knows what she did to that poor baby.

No.

The point is that the mother's records are an hour out with everyone's independent notes, not just around Lucy Letby calling the doctor. That includes the midwife's call to the parents, based on the midwife's notes, on another ward.

What was wrong with the multiple links and explanations people have you on this already?

Nobody has ever suggested Lucy Letby didn't call the doctor to examine the child when he had blood around his mouth. He came to examine the child at the nurse's request. That's in his notes.

Why are you now throwing in a new false accusation?

MistressoftheDarkSide · 23/08/2025 00:08

Been watching this thread. And have read the previous ones.

Heartening to see some familiar names patiently explaining why this conviction is unsafe and why cases with contentious medical evidence are poorly served by our adversarial justice system as it stands.

I'm finding the Reddit subs very useful for keeping up with new articles and developments - well, not including the one that could be dubbed the witch hunt sub of course.

I've also watched a few YouTube videos such as Lucy Letby analysis, which is thorough in many ways.

I've written on similar threads about my experience of being falsely accused of harming my DC and the pitfalls of medical dogma and circular thinking, fortunately not in the criminal courts, but in the family courts.

The thing that sticks out for me is that this verdict was based on the balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt, and that is not the standard expected in a criminal court.

The case needs a serious review or the justice system may never recover. And I think the justice system needs a serious overhaul because we live in an advanced technological age, and much of the process is outdated and tortuous.

Firefly1987 · 23/08/2025 00:10

@LancashireButterPie he doesn't come across well I agree. In the book I'm reading Unmasking Lucy Letby he apparently said that neonatology was not a separate speciality where he came from-how true that is I don't know. It appears there aren't many neonatologists around though.

Kittybythelighthouse · 23/08/2025 00:23

Firefly1987 · 22/08/2025 23:53

Yes I did read it. I have no idea why he wasn't called, why would I if even he doesn't know?! I'm not sure why you think the structure or procedure of the trial has any bearing on anything tbh. It would've been compelling to have an expert come out and debunk everything the prosecution experts said (if possible) even if it came a long time after. And being left with all that doubt cast on her guilt might've swayed the jury to not guilty. I think if it was me I'd be begging for them to get someone on the stand in my defence, but that's just me! Though if I was guilty I probably wouldn't...

I just realised yesterday was 2 years since she was sentenced to life in prison with a whole life order. That was a good day for justice.

“I'm not sure why you think the structure or procedure of the trial has any bearing on anything tbh.”

That explains a lot 🫠

Firefly1987 · 23/08/2025 00:34

Oftenaddled · 23/08/2025 00:06

No.

The point is that the mother's records are an hour out with everyone's independent notes, not just around Lucy Letby calling the doctor. That includes the midwife's call to the parents, based on the midwife's notes, on another ward.

What was wrong with the multiple links and explanations people have you on this already?

Nobody has ever suggested Lucy Letby didn't call the doctor to examine the child when he had blood around his mouth. He came to examine the child at the nurse's request. That's in his notes.

Why are you now throwing in a new false accusation?

The point is that the mother's records are an hour out with everyone's independent notes, not just around Lucy Letby calling the doctor. That includes the midwife's call to the parents, based on the midwife's notes, on another ward.

OK we seem to be going around in circles here. Again, how do all the other staff know if something happened earlier in the evening that wasn't reported until 10p.m? Just answer me that please.

What was wrong with the multiple links and explanations people have you on this already?

They're irrelevant? Are you SURE you want to focus on baby E's mum considering baby F (E's twin) was poisoned with insulin? Lucy often attacked twins didn't she...and you're desperate to discredit a woman who saw the aftermath of one of those attacks.

Why are you now throwing in a new false accusation?

What's new? It's the mothers' testimony?

Friendlygingercat · 23/08/2025 00:35

Ive looked at some or the new arguments and evidence that have since come in. If she was on trial tomorrow and I was a jurer I would have doubts. So I would have to find her not guilty even if I was not 100% convinced of her innocence by the defence.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 23/08/2025 00:38

Twins often share vulnerabilities due to genetics and prematurely.

Swipe left for the next trending thread